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By: Ellie Potter, Dylan Helms, Mason Vliet

October 25, 2023

The American Council on Renewable Energy (ACORE) hosted the 2023 Grid Forum overlooking the nation’s capital from Arlington, Virginia, convening leading grid experts for discussions of the near-term gaps and long-term priorities for grid infrastructure to maximize the deployment of renewable energy.

After more than a year of working to implement the landmark Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), it is becoming clear that the true potential of the law to accelerate the renewable energy transition has not yet been unlocked. ACORE President and CEO Gregory Wetstone emphasized in his introductory remarks that “the most important and difficult obstacles” hindering the clean energy transition are associated with the outdated electrical grid. Speakers at the ACORE Grid Forum detailed many of these obstacles and highlighted potential solutions to modernize the American electricity grid.

Pictured Left to Right: Gregory Wetstone, President and CEO of ACORE; Allison Clements, Commissioner at FERC

Transmission Planning

Several speakers called for improved regional and interregional transmission planning throughout the day, noting that improved planning processes would also help address the backlog of projects sitting in regional interconnection queues across the country.

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) is working on a transmission planning and cost allocation rule that, once finalized, would require grid operators to conduct long-term regional planning on a more forward-looking basis.

“The most important thing we can do on that front is get a regional transmission system planning rule done and align our interconnection process with our regional planning process,” said FERC Commissioner Allison Clements. “If we finalize that, we have a chance at moving system planning out from under this ill-suited interconnection process…It’s not working.”

Pictured Left to Right: Rob Gramlich, Founder and President of Grid Strategies; Beth Soholt, Executive Director at Clean Grid Alliance; Steve Gaw, Senior Vice President of Infrastructure and Markets at SPP; Elise Caplan, Vice President of Regulatory Affairs at ACORE

Rob Gramlich, Founder and President of Grid Strategies, expressed how the U.S. must proactively plan transmission projects rather than rely on the markets to drive their development.

A common theme throughout the day was how large new transmission projects will promote reliability and save consumer dollars in the long term in ways that small incremental projects cannot.

Instead, the U.S. is “building projects through very opaque and nontransparent local planning processes that add a lot of costs to our bills,” said Google’s Brian George. “Those projects need to be moved into regional planning processes.”

By failing to fully plan for future transmission needs, grid operators’ planning processes have led to an underbuilt transmission system, which has caused interconnection challenges in the Southwest Power Pool (SPP), according to Advanced Power Alliance’s Steve Gaw.

“If you’re planning for what you need today or yesterday, you’re way off the mark” for what we need in 2030 and beyond, Gaw said.

Improved regional and interregional transmission planning delivers vital reliability benefits, as seen during Winter Storm Uri in February 2021.

“SPP could very well have been just as dark as ERCOT if it hadn’t been for those [interregional] lines,” Gaw said. “And then we wouldn’t be talking about two small periods of rolling outages in SPP – we would have been talking about the same kind of problems that occurred in ERCOT, where people died.”

Planning processes do not currently value all the benefits long-distance lines offer, particularly resilience benefits during extreme weather events. Yet, several studies have quantified the significant cost savings additional interregional capacity would have provided during recent storms.

“We have some metrics we could use, but we’re just not there yet,” said Beth Soholt of Clean Grid Alliance. “We do need to make progress on additional benefit metrics.”

U.S. Representative Scott Peters (CA-50)

Even without FERC action, grid operators can start planning transmission further into the future.

A need for speed on transmission was a central message from U.S. Rep. Scott Peters (CA-50), who called on lawmakers to hasten the regulatory processes for these critical projects. While the U.S. was building a “bomber an hour” during World War II, the nation is now taking a decade to build a transmission line, he commented. The country must hasten the siting and permitting processes to quickly deploy these projects to meet future power demand, ensure reliability, and reduce emissions from the power sector.

Looking at efforts to expand their day-ahead energy markets out West, several panelists noted that grid operators will need to better coordinate along their transmission seams. Pancaked transmission rates are one of the issues the California Independent System Operator and SPP face as they seek to expand their markets.

Pictured Left to Right: Nic Gladd, Senior Counsel at Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati; Suedeen Kelly, Partner at Jenner & Block; Blair Anderson, Director of Public Policy at AWS; and Pat Reiten, Senior Vice President at Berkshire Hathaway Energy

“If you’re NV Energy, as an example, and you build a solar park and need to access Wyoming wind or Northwest hydro, solving those problems in addition to economic dispatch is important,” said Pat Reiten of Berkshire Hathaway Energy.

In the final panel of the day, all of the participating transmission developers discussed the importance of meaningful engagement with affected communities when mapping out project routes.

“We have to work from the very first minute to build credibility and educate about the need and why we’re there,” Patrick Whitty of Invenergy said.

Pictured Left to Right: Monique Dyers, Principal and CEO of Ensight Energy Consulting; Stuart Nachmias, President and CEO of Con Edison Transmission; Patrick Whitty, Senior Vice President of Public Affairs at Invenergy; Steve Caminati, Vice President of Government and Regulatory Affairs at Pattern Energy

The developers also discussed ways they are working in affected communities to address the workforce shortage. One method is to partner with community colleges to ensure there are career paths for local professionals living in the communities where these projects are being built. “We don’t just want these to be temporary jobs,” said Steve Caminati of Pattern Energy.

Supply chain challenges were also top of mind for panelists. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine pushed European nations to invest in grid technologies, further tightening the global supply chain and pushing delivery dates back several years. Stuart Nachmias of Con Edison Transmission called on the federal government to consider additional incentives to help drive domestic production of critical grid components.

“We really need to think through how this is going to unfold because the need is only growing,” Nachmias said.

Interconnection Queue Woes

FERC recently passed a rule to streamline the interconnection process for project developers. The commission has received input on various ways to reform the interconnection process beyond the scope of that rule, including recommendations related to transmission planning, noted FERC Legal Advisor Miles Farmer.

Pictured Left to Right: Miles Farmer, Legal Advisor at FERC; Alistair Vickers, COO of Grid United; John Williams, Executive Vice President of Policy and Regulatory Affairs at New York State Energy Research and Development Authority; Catherine Morehouse, Reporter at POLITICO

While panelists praised the new policy, they also pointed to areas of improvement to help alleviate the two-terawatt interconnection backlog comprised largely of renewable projects. The interconnection rule – Order 2023 – brings uniformity to a complex process with many regional differences, but speakers shared how additional steps must be taken to address cost uncertainty for developers.

“If we can get to a place where a developer will know with almost 100% certainty what their costs are going to be before they enter the queue, I think that would go a long way to addressing the problems that we’re seeing,” New Leaf Energy’s Adam Stern said.

Pictured Left to Right: Jennifer Ayers-Brasher, Senior Director of Transmission and Interconnection at RWE; Adam Stern, Director of Policy and Business Development at New Leaf Energy; Brian George, U.S. Federal Lead of Global Energy Market Development at Google; Katie Siegner, Manager of Carbon-Free Electricity at RMI

There is little transmission being built, leaving developers to foot the bill for expensive system upgrades in the interconnection process, Stern added. “It’s those larger upgrades that have probably more to do with systemwide issues as opposed to interconnection needs…Those are also the ones that are going to cause a project to withdraw at a later stage, which then creates a cascading impact of restudies and further delays.”

Limited transmission capacity adversely affects large power consumers, like Google, as well. While there is a dramatic increase in load growth in some regions, few projects are being connected to the transmission system. This limits buyers’ access to renewable energy, and “increasingly we’re seeing it impact our ability to actually bring new loads to the system,” Google’s George said.

With the increase in renewable energy resources seeking to come online, regulators and grid operators should rethink the interconnection study process and associated modeling in the medium to long term, suggested Katie Siegner of RMI.

Invoking President John F. Kennedy as she closed out a panel, Siegner called on Forum attendees to “ask not what the queue can do for you, but what you can do for the queue — and then we will all benefit.”

Spotlight on Grid Technologies

In addition to calls for building more transmission lines, various panelists throughout the day emphasized the need to better utilize the existing grid, namely through grid-enhancing technologies (GETs). These low-cost technologies can be deployed in the near-term, helping add needed capacity until longer-term transmission projects are developed. As Clements stated, doing the “lowest-cost stuff first” is critical before moving on to addressing interconnection challenges and building large power lines. “You cannot stand up and say that you represent consumers and their interests if you are not serious about getting grid-enhancing technologies deployed,” Clements added.

Pictured Left to Right: Mike DeSocio, Founder and CEO of Luminary Energy; Karen Wayland, CEO of GridWise Alliance; Kelli Joseph, Vice President of Electricity Markets and Policy Credit Risk at Fifth Third Bank; Kevin Lucas, Senior Director of Utility Regulation and Policy at SEIA

In the interconnection rule, there was “partial inclusion” of GETs, Siegner said, adding that there needs to be a “balance of requirements and incentives in place to spur their uptake.”

“The end vision, I think, is that utilities and grid operators know how to model them, understand their capabilities, and are deploying them at every turn, and that they’re kind of a default consideration in both transmission planning processes and in the interconnection queue study process when you’re thinking about network upgrade options,” Siegner added.

Panelists also discussed how Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) can bolster grid reliability and resilience. Kevin Lucas of the Solar Energy Industries Association highlighted the inherent uncertainties surrounding the technical, timing, and process aspects of DER aggregation. As the energy industry continues to evolve, understanding and managing these uncertainties will be critical to the successful integration of DERs onto the grid.

Pictured Left to Right: Princess Fuller, Associate at McDermott Will & Emery; Mark Ahlstrom, Vice President of Renewable Energy Policy at NextEra Energy Resources; Jason Burwen, Vice President of Policy & Strategy at GridStor; Jennie Chen, Senior Manager of Clean Energy at World Resources Institute; Andrew Waranch, CEO of Spearmint Energy

Karen Wayland of GridWise Alliance emphasized the unique positioning of DERs for rapid deployment. Their adaptability can serve as a remedy to stop-gap issues utilities might face, suggesting a future where DERs play a significant role if leveraged effectively.

Panelists also pointed to the growing importance of energy storage technologies, touting them as “low-hanging fruit” for the industry.

“Storage is a unique gamechanger in our space,” said Andrew Waranch of Spearmint Energy. “Over the next 8-10 years, I think we will exceed well over 100 gigawatts, maybe even 200 gigawatts of storage.”

Other panelists, including Mark Ahlstrom of NextEra and Jason Burwen of Gridstor, agreed and also noted the important role of the interconnection process for storage. Jennie Chen, discussing her work at the World Resources Institute, emphasized the benefits of using geothermal energy and electric vehicles to provide storage.

The Offshore Grid of Tomorrow

Citing an ACORE-sponsored report, Clements discussed the importance of states collaboratively planning a regional offshore grid to connect offshore wind turbines to the onshore system.

Pictured Left to Right: Tyler Johnson, Partner at Bracewell LLP; Stephen Boyle, Director of RTO and Government Affairs at WindGrid; Emmanuel Martin-Lauzer, Director of Business Development and Public Affairs at Nexans; Nicole Pavia, Program Manager of Clean Energy Infrastructure Deployment at Clean Air Task Force; Lopa Parikh, Head of Electric Policy at Ørsted

Should coastal states have to each make their own one-off transmission investments, they will waste upwards of $20 billion, the commissioner noted.

Ørsted’s Lopa Parikh highlighted the paramount importance of coordination and integration, especially when crafting interconnection points. With offshore wind consistently operating at high voltages, Parikh emphasized the pressing need for our onshore grids to evolve and be prepared.

Shifting to regulatory and financial dynamics, Nicole Pavia of the Clean Air Task Force illuminated the contrast between state and federal offshore wind deployment goals. She emphasized the adverse impact of unplanned development on project costs and coastal communities. The topic of multi-state cooperation, especially regarding cost allocation, resonated strongly.

Stephen Boyle of WindGrid delved into the complexities of such agreements, especially concerning “Who pays for what?” This sentiment was echoed by Emmanuel Martin-Lauzer from Nexans, who described cost allocation as a major obstacle in offshore transmission planning.

In weaving together these themes, the panel painted a picture of an energy future that’s not just about harnessing wind power off our coasts but doing so intelligently, efficiently, and collaboratively. The way forward, as indicated by these experts, is layered with complexities but is also ripe with opportunities for those willing to navigate them with foresight and innovation. The final panel of the day built on this point further by specifying the importance of stakeholder engagement, noting that building credibility and informing communities about project benefits is essential to their success.

On behalf of the ACORE team, thank you to all who were able to join us at this year’s Grid Forum, with a special appreciation to our sponsors that made the event possible. A gallery of photos from the conference can be viewed here. After wrapping up the last of our 2023 signature forums, ACORE looks forward to hosting our Policy Forum and Gala on Feb. 28-29, 2024, in Washington, D.C. We hope to see you there.

The post 2023 ACORE Grid Forum Highlights Near-Term Gaps and Long-Term Priorities for the American Grid appeared first on ACORE.

2023 ACORE Grid Forum Highlights Near-Term Gaps and Long-Term Priorities for the American Grid

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ACORE to Ring Opening Bell at New York Stock Exchange to Celebrate 25 Years

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ACORE to Ring Opening Bell at New York Stock Exchange to Celebrate 25 Years

Washington, D.C. – ACORE will ring the opening bell at the New York Stock Exchange on Wednesday, July 29 at 9:30 a.m. ET to celebrate its 25th anniversary of powering investment in American clean energy.  

For 25 years, ACORE has been working across the entire clean energy business process, uniting technology, policy, and finance to accelerate America’s transition to a clean energy economy.

ACORE’s President and CEO Ray Long will ring the bell alongside members of the ACORE Board.

If you are interested in a conversation with ACORE CEO Ray Long, please let us know at communications@acore.org.

When: Wednesday, July 29 at 9:30 a.m. ET

Where: New York Stock Exchange, 11 Wall Street, New York, NY. Media wishing to attend in person should RSVP to Chris Higginbotham beforehand. The ceremony will also be livestreamed at https://www.nyse.com/bell.

###

About ACORE: 
ACORE is a nonpartisan nonprofit organization that operates at the intersection of affordability, reliability, and clean energy deployment. Our work is focused on stabilizing energy prices, strengthening the electric grid, and driving investment in cost-effective technologies to ensure that clean energy delivers for people, businesses, and the U.S. economy.   

ACORE’s membership includes clean energy investors, developers, energy buyers, power generators, manufacturers, and energy providers. In 2024, nearly 80% of the booming utility-scale domestic clean energy growth was financed, developed, owned, equipped, or contracted by ACORE members.

Media Contacts:

Chris Higginbotham
higginbotham@acore.org

The post ACORE to Ring Opening Bell at New York Stock Exchange to Celebrate 25 Years appeared first on ACORE.

https://acore.org/news/acore-to-ring-opening-bell-at-new-york-stock-exchange-to-celebrate-25-years/

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GE Vernova Q2 Wind Losses, Envision AI Turbine for Fortescue

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Weather Guard Lightning Tech

GE Vernova Q2 Wind Losses, Envision AI Turbine for Fortescue

GE Vernova posts a record quarter as gas and grid surge while wind orders drop 40%. Plus Envision grid-connects its first AI turbine for Fortescue. Visit https://woma2027.com/ to register speaking and sponsorship interest!

Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTubeLinkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

If you haven’t visited woma2027.com, you should do so right now because we are putting together all of the, uh, events at WOMA 2027, which is March 3rd through 5th in Melbourne at the Pullman, Matthew, Pullman East? Pullman East Melbourne. And it’s packed full. Our, in fact, actually, we have so many people applying to attend the event, we’re getting a little nervous on if the size of the venue is not large enough, and we, we have a lot of people already chime in wanting to be sponsors, which is great.

But I wanna talk about what you will experience at WOMA. We’ve done it for two years now, and the feedback has been great. And Yolanda, you’ve been to the one just this past February, and participated in panels and saw some of the, uh, workshops and was involved in a lot of WOMA 2026. What are you expecting in 2027, and what did you think of 2026?

Yolanda Padron: I thought [00:01:00] 2026 was great. I loved seeing everybody there. Uh, got to meet a lot of new people. It was, it was sweet. There was a lot of r- people returning from WOMA 2025, um, and a lot of new people that were told that that was the event to be at to learn about wind, which was really, really nice to hear. Uh, something that I loved, especially since we’ve been through quite a few conferences since then and before then, was just the fact that, like, you’re, you’re just talking about problems and just talking about solutions, and you’re talking about real stories, and it’s nothing that’s super, super public.

You know, like, you, you can have real conversations with real people. I know during a panel I mentioned a, a solution to an issue that I had seen that was kind of niche, and then, uh, like three minutes later, like I had had some people come up to me and we all talked about the problem that we saw and then [00:02:00]talked about their problem, and it was really similar, and obviously in a totally different continent.

And it was, it was good to, to be able to have those conversations that you usually wouldn’t have elsewhere, especially if everything’s just really, really public and just big and you’re having a lot of people sell at you, and it’s, it’s just something that we’ve really shied away from. What, what was your favorite part of it?

Matthew Stead: I, I think, um, it was really the fact that it was a a technical, useful, helpful conference rather than having some rando talking about things that they’re told to talk to you about

Allen Hall: It’s real answers from real problem solvers. And everybody’s gonna be in Melbourne on the 3rd through the 5th of March 2027.

If you’re interested in attending, you need to go to woma2027.com. If you’re interested in sponsoring, it’s also woma2027.com. There’s limited [00:03:00]sponsorship left, so if you wanna do something, you better get in quick. And if you wanna attend the event, and I suggest that you do, that you visit woma2027.com and get registered today

The Uptime Wind Energy podcast, brought to you by StrikeTape. Protecting thousands of wind turbines from lightning damage worldwide. Visit StrikeTape.com. And now, your hosts

Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy podcast. I’m your host, Allen Hall. I’m here with Rosemary Barnes, Matthew Stead, and Yolanda Padron. It’s been a busy day as we record because GE just announced its second quarter earnings and a bunch of things about the business. They had an investor call early, early, early on the East Coast, and even earlier for those on the West Coast of the US, and it was a very good quarter for GE, but a really lopsided one.

Uh, GE Vernova reported second quarter orders of [00:04:00] $24.2 billion, up 88% with a backlog that has now climbed to $176 billion. Free cash came in at $5.1 billion. Man, $5.1 billion is a lot of cash, everybody, which is more than the company generated in all of last year. So they made more in one quarter in cash than made in all of last year, and management is raising its full year guidance, but the strength is coming from gas power and the electric grid, not from wind.

The wind segment saw orders fall 40% and revenue slip 10%, and the company still expects wind to lose about $400 million this year. Although in the investor call, they did say that the forecast for wind in Q3 and maybe even Q4 was to be essentially break even on the EBITDA scale. So that’s a, a, a good number.

It does seem like GE is being more [00:05:00] aggressive on pricing and selective on the projects they are choosing to participate with. Repowers was way down, if I remember correctly. Uh, they are not doing a lot of that at the moment. So there is a slowdown they’re seeing in wind, but they’re more than making up for it in gas turbines and electrification.

Orders for gas turbines are out to ’30, ’31, and I think they’re gonna close out all of ’30, ’31, um, book orders for gas turbines here shortly. So if you want a gas turbine, Matthew, you’re gonna have to get in line because your GE has a long list of, of clients in front of them. What does this mean for wind?

When I hear the discussion where GE is focused on gas and electrification because of the huge cash flow that comes in their door- Does that mean a good positive things for wind because they have the cash to kinda hang around wind? Or is it gonna be set aside for other [00:06:00] more profitable business segments?

I

Matthew Stead: mean, GE’s had a number of setbacks over the years. Um, you know, we know, we know all about them. We’ve been talking about them, you know, multiple times. But, you know, they’ve gotta just wait it out, don’t they? Um, you know, wind is not gonna go away, so they just need to wait it out, get their problems out of the way, get their cash flow in, build the order books again, just wait for things to improve.

Um, I, I think one thing I just wanna pull out, the Sands Ear, i- isn’t that a massive achievement?

Allen Hall: It is. It’s, it’s a colossal engineering achievement on its own. Forget about just delivering and manufacturing all those turbines and getting them installed. And that’s a pattern energy project, and Fairwind I think was involved with that in terms of project development, EPC items.

It’s huge. It’s gigantic. But it may be the last one we see in the United States for a while.

Matthew Stead: And but Vineyard, you know, they’ve gotta resolve that, don’t they? We’ve spoken about that before. Get that one out the way, clear out the decks and, yeah. That’ll come good.

Allen Hall: Rosemary, of our former GE [00:07:00] employees, I guess we have two of them here.

I’m one. Not of wind, but of another division. What’s your thoughts on GE Vernova at the minute?

Rosemary Barnes: These days I see them through the O&M lens. That’s how I work with them, is when my clients need support for all their wind farms and It’s just, it’s just never enough. It’s not a GE-specific thing. Uh, you know, across Australia, anybody with a full service agreement does not…

Uh, the, the company performing that agreement just gives the impression that they just do not have enough, um, uh, enough people. Y- you know? It’s just, just hands or maybe it’s budget. Uh, I guess it, it’s both at the same time. Yeah, I mean, I see some good things like their, the pace of new technologies has slowed and they’re consolidating, which was needed, but it’s just hard to imagine that it’s even gonna be enough considering how many fewer blade engineers that they’ve got now.

Like, how are they, [00:08:00] how are they going to get the, you know, the issues with the platforms that they are, uh, pushing, how are they gonna get all that under control with so many fewer engineers? And will they ever be able to, you know, go back to innovating a- again when they’ve lost so much of their, you know, institutional knowledge?

Allen Hall: Two things they did not mention during the phone call today or in any of the documents that I saw was TPI Composites and that EPC has acquired that and is now operating the factories, uh, making GE blades. And LM Wind Power was not discussed either, although LM Wind Power has been integrated into the overall financials of the company, so it’s not a standalone financial entity like it was last year.

So you can’t really r- read the tea leaves of what’s happening at LM, but nobody talked about or even asked on the investor call what was happening on the wind side. They were very interested in gas turbines and what the order rate was going to be, and GE was concerned [00:09:00] on their side, saying that they’re trying to ramp up production to make more gas turbines, but there’s limitations to how much they can do.

Rosemary Barnes: I guess that’s the s- the zeitgeist now, right? Or it’s the, I don’t know, like, it’s, it’s a sign of the times. Everyone’s obsessed with data centers, and for some reason, data centers are obsessed with gas turbines, um, even though, like, it’s not a fast solution to, uh, y- you know, to, to anything. So I don’t… You know, I’m not saying that building a, you know, a wind farm or solar farms, batteries, those are not without challenges.

But I really don’t think that the, yeah, gas turbine challenge is so much easier than the, um, yeah, than the renewables challenges. It’s a bit weird to me how everyone has just kind of latched onto, “Oh, you need new power, then it needs to be gas.” It’s just a bit weird to me.

Allen Hall: GE was predicting a peak of orders in gas turbines to happen sometime in 2026.

They, they think that the demand curve is gonna trend downward because everybody is already in [00:10:00] line essentially, and it’s five years out, so not many other people are gonna join that line to make it seven, eight years out That also indicates that sort of the d- the demand for gas turbines may be waning a little bit, or there’s just a backlog, they just can’t produce more.

Is that going to then maybe finally open up the best solar wind discussion for AI data centers?

Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, I wonder if it’s partly because y- you know, in a lot of cases… So people wanna build data centers, and then those data centers need power. You can’t just plug into the grid in an easy, timely manner. So then now they’ve gotta BYO their own power, and in fact, in Australia they’ve just announced a, a policy where you will have to…

You can bring your own power, and it will have to be renewable, actually, in Australia. So, um, at least that’s, at least that’s a win for, you know, generation source.

Allen Hall: Yeah. The, the AI data center discussion and gas turbines in the United States has more recently been focused [00:11:00] on, on the AI data centers that use those gas turbines, and the number of gas turbines that they’re choosing, and that they’re choosing gas turbines that fall under some sort of EPA threshold on size.

And what is happening, and which, uh, SpaceX has done and some others have done, is they go underneath that threshold on the size of the gas turbines, and then they, you know, and they daisy chain them together, right? So you, you… Instead of having one massive, I don’t know, two-megawatt generator of some sort, you have a bunch of 200 kilowatts, and you just stack them all together.

And the concern is, is that are some of these data centers violating EPA, the… If not the actual rule or the intent of the rule in terms of emissions, and it’s causing a little bit of a stink. It’s, it’s raised enough of, uh, the noise floor about it that you’re, you’re hearing it on podcasts, you’re hearing people involved in AI data ce- [00:12:00] data centers push back on it saying, “It’s all legal.

It’s all legal.” So it’s gonna come to a head pretty quickly in the United States.

Rosemary Barnes: It was some real, like, real sketchy loophole finding, right? Like, I can’t remember the exact wording, but you’re not supposed to be able to just chuck in a diesel generator or a gas turbine in without any kind of planning, right?

But they found a loophole where it’s like, okay, well, you know, it’s just like a truck except for that there’s no truck, and so it was called, like- off-road or non-road use or something. And it’s just, like, clearly not the, um, the meaning of the, of the law, right? The spirit of the law had, like, obviously been broken.

In Australia we have a saying, the pub test. It doesn’t pass the pub test. Like, if you said that to someone in a pub, then they would be like, “What the hell is that? That is not right.” They have closed the loophole. However, I think that they also kind of quietly just allowed them to keep the ones that they had or had planned or something, so [00:13:00] it’s, like, overall by far not ideal.

But I think that it’s just, like, you can, you can do that for a single site, but it’s obviously, like, the more that you do ridiculous stuff like that, that you lose the community ac- acceptance, which they barely had and definitely don’t really have anymore. Um, and secondly, yeah, like people, uh, people close the loophole and they respond.

It’s, it’s much better, and we see it with wind as well. Like, yeah, you can do things technically by the law, but if you wanna have a, you know, sustainable, uh, industry through the years, through the decades, you actually have to kind of, you know, think, “What happens if I do y- push to the furthest extent of the law, um, to get away with whatever I can?”

What’s gonna happen is regulation is gonna come down on you and you’ll lose the ability to kind of self-regulate.

Allen Hall: We’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll meet a wind turbine that runs on artificial intelligence, Rosie.[00:14:00]

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In the red dirt of Western Australia, a mining company and a Chinese turbine maker are trying something new. Envision Energy says it has grid connected its first [00:15:00] artificial intelligence wind turbine prototype for Fortescue’s Nullagine Wind Project in Pilbara. The full project will use 17 of Envision’s EN182 turbines, each rated for 7.8 megawatts and built to handle mining sites, desert heat, and tough grid rules.

The turbines- The turbines pair a self-erecting tower from Nabler Wind with a hub standing an astonishing 188 meters tall. Behind it all sits Envision’s Energy Foundation Model software that company calls the world’s largest physical AI system. The goal is to swap diesel and gas for wind across the mine’s fleet and processing sites.

So this is an effort by Fortescue to power mining operations with electricity. It’s a pretty ex- exciting [00:16:00] project if you’re watching. The Envision artificial intelligence piece is an aspect that I didn’t know much about, and I still am trying to gather more information on, because there’s not a ton of info about what AI means in terms of a physical system.

And maybe Rosie, you know a little bit more, or Yolande, you can brief us on what this really is.

Rosemary Barnes: We just need to start with a pronunciation lesson, Allen. Sorry.

Matthew Stead: Not Pilbara, Pilbara. Pilbara.

Rosemary Barnes: I, I don’t actually… I hadn’t heard that part about AI and that it doesn’t… I, I don’t know. It’s, it’s such a buzzword that it might not mean anything, you know.

However, there’s so many cool aspects to that project that aren’t related to AI. Um, yeah, the tower height, the tower erection technology. I’m interested to hear that they have taken the heat of the environment into [00:17:00] consideration, ’cause that’s one of the, my obsessions actually, as long as I’ve been working on wind turbines, and ever since I found out how, you know, the materials qualification and certification process works, that it just doesn’t take into account the really high temperatures.

That’s one of the projects that Padlo has going on at the moment, is, um, putting sensors on some turbines to, like, look into that more. Um, yeah, because we do see in Australia a lot of sites have, you know, even within a few years, they might have 20 years of operation left, but we already see a whole lot of cracks that look suspiciously like end of, end of life fatigue cracks on them.

So yeah, we are looking into that more, and it’s very interesting to hear that Envision have taken the heat into consideration. I hope it includes the blade structure as well as just, you know, other turbine components, electronics, and that sort of thing.

Allen Hall: It does sound like they’re pairing batteries or BESS with wind turbines, where the BESS is located at the base of the turbine.

That would make sense in [00:18:00] Australia, particularly around where mines are, because it tends to be very remote, and storing electricity would make sense. The Discussions I’ve seen on YouTube deal with more on the energy trading side, that the wind turbine stores energy, of course, and it does it very efficiently into the best system, and then the AI system sits on top of that to help arbitrage the energy that’s stored in the battery to make more money.

Not a bad way of doing it, but it does lead to a ton of questions about national security, the use of AI, the, uh, and how this is all going to integrate together from a asset manager side. Yolande, I know in the United States we have a lot of restrictions about the technology that is in wind turbines and the, and the firewalls that exist there, where you, you can’t even plug into a wind turbine without having a lot of approvals.

Is AI coming in wind [00:19:00] turbines in the US and the rest of the world, or is this mostly a Western Australia event?

Yolanda Padron: We talked a little bit about a trading company a couple episodes ago, right? And that was a… It sounded like it’s, it’s coming. Um, I, when I first read the article that we’re talking about for Fortescue, I thought this was more of, like, a SCADA self-learning AI type thing, where, like It, it kind of learns from the, from itself, and then maybe it, it tells you you’re more likely to be seeing some sort of blade issue that wasn’t shown before

Rosemary Barnes: I heard, um, Andrew Forrest speak at a smart energy conference earlier this year, and he was talking about not for, um, not for wind, but for the solar and battery projects that they’ve already got there.

He called it a self-healing grid, and AI was the technology that enabled that. And so he, [00:20:00] he was saying, and I can’t remember the, the details specifically either, but when there was a, a disturbance, something that would’ve caused the, you know, without the AI, um, you know, layer looking after everything, a fault that would’ve shut the whole site down was able to self, self-heal with no interruption to supply.

Um, and that that was the kind of AI that, uh, they were talking about. I believe that the new wind farm addition to that is the same sort of thing, where they’re looking at, you know, a very complex system with… I mean, they don’t have energy prices to deal with, uh, in that case because it’s self-contained.

They’re not conne- connected to any external grid. Um, but you know, they’ve got wind, they’ve got solar, they’ve got, uh, so obviously weather conditions related to those two going on. They’ve got batteries, they’ve got, you know, yeah, the, um, availability of every single different… of probably many [00:21:00] thousands of different components in that system that, um, y- you know, you need to make sure that if there’s a failure or when there’s a failure in any one or combination of those things, that you’re always going to be able to reroute around that and kind of heal itself.

So it probably does include some of, of what you were saying, Yolanda, but I think when they say this is the biggest physical AI, like, I think that that might be a little bit of a meaningless term because y- you know, like, there’s AI… It, it could be like… I, I don’t know. It, like, what, what does that mean?

Like, if you have AI that is, um, you know, playing some role in controlling America’s electricity grids, then that would be the biggest, the biggest one, even if it was, you know, like a tiny little, playing a tiny role. I, I, I don’t know what that specifically means and… Is it bad marketing ’cause it’s just confusing and makes you assume that it’s, um, just meaningless buzzword cool [00:22:00]sounding thing

Allen Hall: It’s probably genius marketing because they attach AI to whatever the product is.

So we have AI lightning diverters at Weather Guard. EOLOGIX-PING has AI CMS, and Partload has whatever Partload does, AI-Partload. So that’s the smart move, th- uh, because it does seem to raise the value

Rosemary Barnes: But you know what? Partload is anti-AI because 90% of our work is you get, you know, drone inspections, and they use AI, and then it w- and it works really, w- it works really…

I’d never wanna make it sound like it is bad technology because, you know, the status quo before we had drones with using AI was to just not inspect your blades. So, you know, like, we’re doing much better than that now. But everything that we do is where AI was not able to do it or AI did it wrong. So y- you know, um, like I- we use AI in that everything that comes into us is AI.

Allen Hall: Well, if the same AI [00:23:00] technology that is reviewing blade images is being applied inside of a wind turbine, what do you see as a likely outcome there, Rosemary?

Rosemary Barnes: Well, it’s not, I mean, it’s not the, it’s not the same. And like I said, uh, it’s very easy for me to be like, “Oh, AI, you know, makes all these mistakes,” but it, I only see the mistakes.

I don’t see the 90%-plus of correctly categorized things. I don’t, they’re not relevant to me. Um- Uh, but I think for controlling a complex system, like it, it is… That, that’s a really great application. I mean, I think it’s like with any like super hyped up technology, it’s like really useful in a few things, and that’s what leads to the hype, and then people start to just wanna apply it everywhere.

It becomes the, you know, like when the only tool you’ve got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Like, that’s where we’re at. Like AI is this, um, is this hammer that we’ve got, and everyone wants to solve every problem with it. And I do it myself, you know. Like I hate writing LinkedIn posts, and so I’ll work with, with Claude or, um, I [00:24:00] use NotebookLM as well to, you know, I draft my LinkedIn post.

And you’re like, “Well, th- no, that sucks. Do this, do this, do this.” And then, you know, like half an hour later, you’re like, okay, I could very easily have written my own post in less time, and I could… I, I try again and again because I just, I, uh, you know, hate that kind of writing so much. But yeah, I think that like economy-wide, that’s the problem, that everyone is just trying to whack every problem with AI regardless of whether it’s the right one.

Allen Hall: Okay, so there’s gonna be products that are gonna incorporate AI or have AI somewhere hyphenated in the name of the product. What products should not be using AI right now?

Matthew Stead: Yeah, I think there’s… Uh, I wanna add to the… You know, go back a few steps. That calling this the largest, you know, physical AI device is complete rubbish really.

That’s stupid, really. It’s like, like, like what you said, Rosie. It’s like putting an AI machine on a road, and then it becomes the world’s largest AI infrastructure. I mean, that was, that was pretty stupid, um, [00:25:00] really. And that, that’s just marketing. My, my view is if you can’t explain what it does, you shouldn’t be using the word AI So in marketing, you know, you can’t just say, “Oh, it’s AI ’cause I don’t understand what it does.”

You should actually be able to explain, “This is what this product does, and this is why it does it, and we use AI to help make that occur in a smart way.” Rather than just being randomly talking about, um, AI solving all of these complex issues and not actually knowing how it’s done is rubbish.

Rosemary Barnes: To answer your question, Allen, I think AI shouldn’t be used for most creative stuff.

Like video, um, creation, everybody hates it, and companies keep on pushing it, and it sucks. And I think also it’s kind of… It, it makes people so angry, I think it’s gonna backfire if it hasn’t already for most, [00:26:00] most people that are using it. Um, yeah, so that would be one thing. And also, uh, you shouldn’t use too much AI for, like, I see it heaps on LinkedIn now, and it’s, it’s kind of…

Like, at the first time you use AI, you’re like, “Whoa, th- this is pretty, pretty good. Like, this is something, you know, like I could… That’s very similar to the stuff that I, yeah, used to post on LinkedIn or the infographics that I used to make.” But the issue is that, like, it looks that way the first time, but then once you use it a bit and you can recognize that it’s AI, then you see it everywhere and it, it turns you, really turns you off whoever’s put it out there.

And so, like, there’s so much on LinkedIn now where it’s, like, just AI-generated things. It’s… Even if, you know, like, if an expert has created it and edited it afterwards and made sure that the output is accurate, then I wouldn’t call it AI slop. But it is also, like, it’s always too [00:27:00] wordy. It’s, um, you know, it’s just like the style is just clearly e- the h- if the point is that you’re trying to express, “I’m an expert.

These are my expert opinions. I know what I’m talking about,” AI is not doing that for you. Like, you write your post or create your graphic with AI, it’s just not doing that for you. So I think that that is another example of where people shouldn’t be using AI.

Allen Hall: That wraps up another episode of the Uptime Wind Energy podcast.

If today’s discussion sparked any questions or ideas, we’d love to hear from you. Reach out to us on LinkedIn. And if you found value in today’s conversation, please leave us a review. It really helps other wind energy professionals discover the show. And please, please, please don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

For Rosie, Yolande, and Matthew, I’m Allen Hall, and we’ll see you here next week on the Uptime Wind Energy [00:28:00] podcast.

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