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Everpoint Services and INL Team Up on Cybersecurity Research

Candace Wood, COO of Everpoint Services, along with Michael McCarty and Megan Culler from Idaho National Lab, discuss their collaboration at Little Pringle Wind Farm to conduct cybersecurity research and testing. The episode delves into the critical importance of addressing cybersecurity vulnerabilities in wind energy infrastructure to ensure grid resiliency and energy security.

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Allen Hall: Welcome to the special edition of the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast. I’m your host, Allen Hall, along with my co host, Joel Saxum. This podcast has an interesting story behind it. Our first guest today is Candace Wood, Chief Operating Officer at Everpoint Services, which is based in Texas. Candace purchased the Little Pringle Wind Farm at an auction.

Little Pringle Wind Farm is outside of Texas. Amarillo, Texas, and buying a wind farm at auction doesn’t happen very often. And this is where the story takes an interesting turn. Candace and Everpoint made a decision about how to use this wind farm. Everpoint connected with the Idaho National Laboratory, cybersecurity experts, to use a portion of the turbines for cybersecurity.

Research and testing. So from the Idaho National Lab is Michael McCarty, who is a cybersecurity research specialist and Megan Culler, who is a power engineer specializing in cybersecurity and resiliency, also from the Idaho National Laboratory. Megan, Michael, and Candice, welcome to the show.

Candace Wood: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Michael McCarty: Thank you.

Allen Hall: Alright, so let’s start off with a little prequel and figure out how Candace ended up buying a wind farm. So you were at an auction Candace? Can you describe what happened where you decided to put down some money on a wind farm?

Candace Wood: Everpoint Services, we are a end of life services company for renewables.

So we primarily focus on decommissioning and demolition of wind turbines as well as solar assets. And we’d heard about this wind farm that had been abandoned since about So I was at the auction in August of 2017. Small farm, 10 units originally 2 megawatts each and heard that it was going up for auction.

The county had seized the asset to try and recover some back taxes. I tuned into the option really with the intention of finding out who was going to purchase it and then pitching our services to them. Hey, we can come in and help you cut these things down. So I’m listening to the auction and the price point is going once going twice and I’m thinking gosh, that’s Really not a lot of money.

I mean we’re talking, five figures and I thought well, let me just throw out a bid there and see what happens so I threw out a bid that was just slightly above what was about to be the winning bid and on behold I One, I bought the wind farm, so it was somewhat impulsive decision, which was both terrifying and exciting.

In the immediate aftermath, what was interesting was once we looked into it a little bit more, we discovered that the interconnection agreement at the site was still in good standing. And once I actually finally got out there to look at it, because I did purchase the site unseen, I Never actually looked at it before.

Once we got out there and looked at it, I thought, these turbines, they’re not in such terrible condition, all things considered. And so we started looking into, okay what could we do? Maybe did we want to repower it? And that led us down the path of looking for funding sources, which led us to the government a lending program within the government.

They say if you don’t want to borrow 100 million or more, we really aren’t interested. But we know these guys over at Idaho National Labs who’ve been looking for a wind farm to do some cyber security testing on. They might be interested in what you have going on there. So that was how we ended up getting linked up with Idaho National Labs.

Allen Hall: Candace, when you get to the site, you’ve taken a look at these wind turbines. They are functional still?

Candace Wood: No. Several towers had blades that were broken off. One of the first. My 1st order is a business was to actually get out there and clean up some of the blade debris that had fallen down into the landowner’s fields so that they could plant in the spring.

And no, it was not functioning, but having a background in construction and when, I, I. Climbed one of the towers and said the bolts seem to be holding together pretty well. And the towers that had the blades on them, seem to be mostly intact aside from a lot of dust.

The other primary issue was that, the copper pirates had gotten in there and cut out most of the cabling, the voltage cabling. And so that was the, that’s the main hurdle and getting the site back up and running. And so that’s what we’ve been working with on is to secure some funding so that we can actually go in rewire several of the towers, get them back up and running so that they can try and pack into them.

Joel Saxum: My mind switches to a bunch of things, right? So you stumbled upon this auction. The interconnection agreement, unbeknownst to you at the time, is still in place. Great, right? I’m thinking, man, could it be, could it be repurposed? Could it be behind the meter green hydrogen? Could it be, could we put energy back into the grid?

However, to my understanding, these are de wind turbines, right?

Candace Wood: They are a de wind, which is no longer in existence.

Joel Saxum: Yeah. And tough to, spare parts, anything’s going to have to be custom built. It’s not like you just walk, it’s not like it’s a GE one five and you call your neighbor wind farm and say Hey, do you got some breaks or you got some bearings or apparently do you have some medium voltage cabling that we can borrow?

You guys don’t have that capability. Joining up with the Idaho national labs, that is a, there’s two really cool things about that to me. So it’s someone that they needed to have a project, right? They have something that they want to do. They want to do something that will better the wind industry as a whole.

You have the assets. So it seems like it’s a a good, really good marriage of someone who needs something, someone who has something right. So when you first engage with the Idaho National Lab, how did that conversation go? Was it like, Hey, we’ve have these things. What do you guys want to do?

Or did you guys have a plan in mind? And then it switched? Or how does that process look like?

Candace Wood: And maybe Michael can elaborate more, but my understanding was they had tried to pursue this project topic At a different wind farm asset site but ran into some issues with the ownership. And as you can imagine, probably most owner operators are not too keen to have somebody come in and try and hack into their, functioning winter and so we were in a unique position where, we own the site outright.

We’re not overly concerned about running them because they’re not currently running. And so I think in our initial conversation, we both realized, hey this might actually work.

Joel Saxum: So Michael, then you guys get engaged with Everpoint. You now have these assets, these 10 turbines. that are in various states of disrepair.

We got to get them up and running and stuff. But to so immediately you guys are thinking, Hey, this is the project that we want to do, let’s go and attack it. So what is that project? What is it that you guys are working on?

Michael McCarty: So the project that we’re working on here, the Idaho national laboratory is.

We’re basically taking the wind turbines and we’re going to get them operational or, as close to operational as we can. So the blade spin and that sort of thing, maybe they’re not producing energy at 100%, but we’re going to get them operational. And then we want to assess the whole security stance the security posture of the wind turbine and see, you where and how we could poke that to cause possible physical damage.

A bit similar to the Aurora experiment. If you’re familiar with that, so we want to see basically the places that cyber can interface with the physical portions of the nacelle, the tower the inverter, if there’s an inverter, connecting back to the grid and. Then see can we actually do that?

And if we can do that, what sort of mitigations could we put in place to Stop that from happening in real life.

Joel Saxum: So can you walk us through that Aurora generator? I think it was a diesel generator test, right? Just so that the listeners know what that is.

Michael McCarty: Yeah, it’s So it’s it’s on the internet quite a bit.

I think there’s like a Wikipedia page about it. But basically they, it was a destructive test. So they wanted to see if the safety measures had been removed from some electronic component in a large diesel generator what would happen, would it smoke, would it blow up, would it catch fire?

And it pretty much did those things. So you remove the safety measures, right? From the electronic components. And so when it’s supposed to fail and fail safe, it doesn’t fail safe. It fails the worst way possible because of specifically a cyber component.

Megan Culler: If I can add, I would just say that the, with that diesel generator test, what they did was through digital means connected and disconnected it from the grid rapidly.

So that it was out of sync with the actual grid. So if you think about two things that are typically spitting together, we made the generator spend, or they made the generator spend differently, which of course is, does not make the generator components very happy. And so that’s where the actual smoking and physical damage came from.

Joel Saxum: That makes absolute sense. And this is so this is becoming more and more of something that’s very important to our society in general for grid resiliency. Energy security in general, right? So it makes sense that Idaho National Labs has a bit of a budget to explore these things. I was at an insurance conference last year and one of the big new topics was cyber insurance, right?

So it was basically pandering to wind farm owners and insurance brokers. Hey, you guys need to have these policies in place because these things can happen. They have, right? In the news, I think it was last year, Allen, correct me if I’m wrong where there was like a cyber attack and they shut down a pipe, one of the pipelines going towards the over on the east coast.

Allen Hall: Yeah, down in North Carolina.

Joel Saxum: Yeah and it like changed fuel delivery, fuel prices, all kinds of stuff. That was an, that’s one incident. If more and more of these incidents are happening, or if you have Megan, like you said, the, such, you have a hundred turbine wind farm and they start, you start cycling on these turbines on and off and on and off.

As opposed to how, the grid frequencies that they’re supposed to run at. You can damage inverters, you can do things. I know a really cheesy, simple one when you talk about damage is, if you could get into a turbine and hit the emergency stop remotely, you can do, irreparable damage to the blades just by doing that.

Megan Culler: There’ve been several notable incidents that have affected wind organizations as well. Several ransomware events against wind companies in Europe as well as an attack on satellite infrastructure in Europe. That was not targeted at wind infrastructure, but happened to take out the remote communications for 5800 Enercon wind turbines.

And because of the method of that attack it, they actually had to physically go out and replace the modems and all of those turbines, which took almost two months for them to do not a physical impact in that case. The wind turbines were still producing energy. But no remote monitoring was possible during that time.

Allen Hall: Michael, what are some of the things that you’re going to try to attack on a wind turbine in particular, and what would be the simple way to prevent them? Because right now we’re talking about DeWind wind turbines which are an older wind turbine. But the technology internal to those wind turbines hasn’t changed a lot, probably until

People started, the OEM started paying attention to cybersecurity. I know they’re going to not like me saying that, but that’s pretty much the case. What are those weak points and not to give out national security risk, but what should we be looking for here?

Michael McCarty: The weak points that we’re looking for specifically are, any sort of remote connectivity is normally part of your attack surface.

And so you want to go in and. If there’s something like basically a VPN connection, a cellular modem or some other way to connect in from remotely that’s your first point of contact with them. And then once you go in the. There’s some servers, there’s some computers connected in on the other side of the turbine.

And from there you can control the PLCs which control the, the pitch of the blades and things like that. Specifically some of the scenarios that we were looking at to cause physical damage were things like a tower strike. If the blades if you, If they’re spinning fast enough and they get caught in the wind just the right way, they can actually strike the tower.

We’re looking at that basic overheating sort of scenarios where something is just overused or used to the point to which it starts to break down, but whatever sort of safety systems or monitoring systems that are in place don’t relay that information back. Maybe we just tell a piston to just go, in and out for, over and over again, but we don’t relay that information back anywhere.

And so nobody knows it’s happening. And that piston uses 10 years of its lifetime overnight or something like that. And ultimately, we don’t really know. So we’ve got some scenarios that we’ve. We’ve laid out, but this is the experiment is to actually get down there and try and do it, because sometimes you tabletop specific scenarios, and then Turns out they’re not really that big of a deal, so you want to actually test it

Joel Saxum: One of the things that pops in my mind here is a kind of I think probably that angle Allen was going down is this Is a DeWind turbine.

So if you were to be successful or not However, this however these experiments is, roll out over these tests go people may say ah it’s cool But you did it on a DeWin turbine try to do that to a GE or a Vestas or try to do that through XYZ company’s controller or XYZ company’s security mechanisms of sorts.

Will you be testing other things From the marketplace or retrofit materials or anything like that.

Michael McCarty: Yes, absolutely. So we, one of the large parts of the experiment is we’re going to test what we can do, and then we’re going to modernize a few of the components or at least, put it like a different aggregator, different PLCs company XYZ newer components, because these are older DE wind components that have, they do have security.

I’ve looked at it already and they do have firewalls and stuff like that. But as we add newer components, we’ll see. how those newer components actually stop this attack from happening. And the idea is we’ll have multiple different topologies. So the topology where it’s your old 2017 architecture, and then a topology where it’s.

Slightly modified, slightly better, with a few things removed to make it more secure, and then we’ll have a topology where it’s completely secured 100 percent with our, our partners, our security partners, and those sorts of things implemented in the environment. And so this will be the more secure environment that.

an attacker wouldn’t be able to penetrate without setting off lots of bells and alarms. And then we’ll compare all three topologies so that wind farms can use that documentation and use that report to see if I added this, how much would it help my security posture?

Allen Hall: There’s a number of terms the United States are reaching through that 10 year Time span we’re going to be repowered.

And while they’re going through that repowering effort now’s the time to update their cybersecurity for sure. What simple things should they be doing when they’re if they’re upgrading an existing turbine or replacing it? What should they be looking for from a security a cyber security perspective?

Michael McCarty: It’s always good to have some sort of alarm system. There’s newer technologies, I hate to mention specific vendor names and that sort of thing, but there’s newer technologies out that help to take out the security that the need for security personnel and offset that to other services where basically you just install their device and they will monitor your system and let you know if something goes wrong.

So there’s not really that much of a requirement of standing up a whole the security team or, training everyone as, as far as how to secure their wind site. But some basic things are just network intrusion detection systems. So you want something on your network that will alert if anything bad happens.

Generally, even this 2017 system is pretty locked down. It’s got firewalls and stuff, but if anything goes wrong, there’s nothing to tell you. There’s nothing to tell you if somebody’s poking around. But the basics are network intrusion detection systems and host intrusion detection systems. Which the host intrusion detection systems are what runs on the actual any servers, any windows machines, any HMI is running on the wind turbine.

It has its own kind of built in. If you poke at it, it will set off an alarm. And then you have the network intrusion detection systems, where if there’s somebody new on the network, it automatically sends out an alarm. Those are some basic measures that they could add.

Allen Hall: Do we have a sense of how many networks have been intruded in the wind industry at the moment?

Let’s just say the United States, do you have a general sense of that?

Megan Culler: I can speak to a couple of specific incidents. For the most part, what we’re seeing is that wind farms are being affected and in some cases have actually been physically affected by cyberattacks, but they’re usually not the primary target or maybe not a target at all.

One example is a incident that was reported where a technician, like a traveling technician, maintenance person who worked on multiple wind farms, stayed in a hotel overnight downloaded malware onto his laptop by accident through that hotel Wi Fi went to work the next day, plugged his laptop into.

start doing maintenance on the turbines and they started shutting down one by one. I don’t know the exact details of that, but if I had to make a guess, it would be something that it was like a an operating system type of malware. And if those turbines happens to be using windows controllers or something like that, that it was an aggressive malware that spread through that and shut down the operating systems.

So something that’s targeting wind? No, but potential impact? Yes. Same thing with the denial of service attack that happened in Utah, where a known vulnerability in a Cisco firewall was exploited that caused that firewall to reboot repeatedly over a 12 hour period, and each reboot took about five minutes and so communications were lost during each one of those reboot periods.

And that network, that firewall was sitting on a network that included some wind assets and solar assets. But, I don’t want to spread fear I still don’t think that most attackers are going after wind because it’s wind yet.

Joel Saxum: Yeah, that’s why we’re doing this, right? We have the, Everpoint’s got these assets.

We’re utilizing them as a, as a, as an industry to test against this stuff so we can be resilient against stuff that may happen in the future. So that, I guess that brings me to another question, Candice, this one for you. Right now the idea with Idaho National Labs is we’re going to test a bunch of cyber security protocols, equipment.

See what could happen, but could you use or are you going to use these assets at little Pringle for anything else? Like I know we had talked a little bit about testing some other equipment out there.

Candace Wood: Yeah. We, we do actually get a lot of inquiries from folks who are interested in testing, their new, their prototype for, the blade inspections, or, X, Y, Z, we’re also starting to look into potentially adding some battery storage out there.

And then, there’s also follow on potential for also testing some grid resilience, the actual interconnection to the grid. Little Pringle is our R& D playground and I, welcome opportunities to, to do this type of testing out there because I do think it is unique.

situation that we have and it will help the industry overall as a whole. So even though our point primarily focuses on decommissioning and demolition, we are still interested in making sure that the industry is robust and moving in the right direction.

Michael McCarty: We plan on setting up this experiment as something that multiple people can use.

So your network intrusion detection, Companies your host intrusion detection companies if they want to showcase their software or their abilities This would be like a playground for them to come in and test because nothing like this exists anywhere else you know nowhere else can you go and get a real turbine and install your software and collect your data and see what’s going on.

Allen Hall: That makes infinite sense and I’m just, I was just thinking about and Joel and I were talking about conditioning monitoring systems and things that plug into the turbine as maybe being that vulnerability point so if you do have those systems. There’s a lot of companies making these systems today that do plug into SCADA.

Yeah, it would make sense to work with Idaho national labs to find out if your system is as robust as you think that it is, because it does matter, right? You’d hate to get 10, 000. systems and service and realize you have a cyber security defect that needs to be addressed. Now’s the time to deal with it.

And that’s why Idaho National Lab exists, right?

Michael McCarty: I would point out too, we’re working with several other labs this is a multi lab effort. So a lot of the data that we’re collecting from the site is the first of its kind. Like there, there isn’t really a site that has had this happen that we have data from.

So once we. cause and event, and then we collect the actual data. We could use that at other labs for training and other purposes. But we are working with NREL. We’re working with Sandia National Laboratory and in multiple projects that are stemming from this effort. And we’re of course open to any other labs if they want to run their experiments or companies that want to come in and run their experiments on our system we’re hoping it’s a research environment for them.

Allen Hall: All right. So how do we reach out to Everpoint? We’ve got to talk to Candace first because those are her turbines because she won them at an auction. Candace, how do they reach out to you to connect with you and then and connect with Get on these turbines if needed.

Candace Wood: Sure. Yeah. You can connect with me via email or our website everpointservices.

com. And there’s should be a link in there just to submit a general inquiry. That’ll come to my business partner, Tyler Goodell or myself, and we’ll Follow up and see what opportunities we can pursue.

Allen Hall: And Megan, how do they get a hold of the cybersecurity experts at the Idaho National Laboratory?

Megan Culler: You can certainly connect with us via email or LinkedIn or any one of our websites as well.

Allen Hall: Okay, we will. Put those in the show notes for sure. I know this is going to drum up a lot of interest in the United States. Obviously, cybersecurity is a big item. We look at wind turbines today as national assets.

And when you actually walk on a wind farm now, the training is not the little safety briefing you get. It’s not about putting your hard hat on and having steel toed boots. It’s also about not plugging into their network. And stop screwing around so you could introduce some malware, right? So it is really escalated in the last couple of years.

And I’m glad that the Idaho National Laboratory is involved with this in Canada. So we really thank you so much for making this possible because you’re going to make wind turbines even more resilient. It’s brilliant.

Candace Wood: Great. Thanks guys.

https://weatherguardwind.com/everpoint-services-inl-cybersecurity/

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Japan Backs Floating Wind, US Grid Sidelines Clean Energy

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Japan Backs Floating Wind, US Grid Sidelines Clean Energy

Japan and the UK sign a $12 billion floating wind deal for 5.9 GW, Muehlhan buys Coverwind Solutions in Spain, and US grid reform stalls as MISO, PJM, and SPP fast-track fossil resources over wind.

Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTubeLinkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

The Uptime Wind Energy podcast, brought to you by StrikeTape. Protecting thousands of wind turbines from lightning damage worldwide. Visit striketape.com. And now your hosts

Allen Hall: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy podcast. I’m your host, Allen Hall. I’m here with Rosemary Barnes, just back from Japan, in Matthew’s stead. Yolanda Padron is on special assignment. Well, Rosemary, what happened in Japan? You, you spent a, a week touring the country and looking at, uh, some energy projects.

What did you learn?

Rosemary Barnes: I was there for just five, five nights. I went over for an, um, an, a systems engineering conference by INCOSE. I was doing a keynote presentation there, and also spoke to some of their… They’ve got this program, an international programming for, like, upcoming leaders. Um, and yeah, it was funny, the topic that I chose for [00:01:00] that was how you can combine an online presence with a serious professional career.

Uh, ’cause, you know, like, a lot of the advice that you see about building an online presence is, like, totally compat- incompatible with being taken seriously in a, uh, you know, in a, a job like engineering. So that was pretty fun. And then on the last day, I was able to arrange a tour of a community. Like, we went to this village near Fukushima, and they, a- after the Fukushima, uh, or the earthquake that led to the Fukushima, uh, shutdown, that town, some power lines came down, and that, that village was without power for three months.

So in response to that, they’re like, “Community power for the win.” At this place, like, there was literally steam coming out of the ground just, you know, randomly. It’s an onsen town, so you know, like, it’s, um, it’s built around tourism for these hot baths. And so they put in a couple of geothermal power plants, small ones, and, um, also some hydropower.

But the reason why I wanted to go there was ’cause, you know, ge- [00:02:00]geothermal is such an obvious solution for Japan, for the energy, but they only have… .3% of their electricity is generated by geothermal currently. And, um, the main reason is that the onsen community in Japan is really opposed to it. They’ve lobbied against it because they’re worried that, um, you know, the onsen community needs heat to come out, hot water to come out of the ground, and geothermal takes hot water out of the ground, so they’re just worried that they’re incompatible.

Um, now I think the science says that that’s not really true, that the, there isn’t, they’re not the same resource and that one doesn’t affect the other. The wastewater from the geothermal is not really wastewater. It’s just water that is not as hot as it was when it came up. Um, that goes down then into the onsen because it’s a good temperature.

And then some of the even cooler water, about 21, 23 degrees, they’re using that to raise shrimp.

Allen Hall: Well, just speaking of Japan, uh, the Japanese Prime Minister was just in the UK and a [00:03:00] big deal was signed between Japan and United Kingdom, £9 billion worth, which is about 12 billion US dollars, uh, to work together on 5.9 gigawatts of floating wind capacity in the UK, uh, across three different projects.

W- And the goal is to get some Japanese partners working with, uh, the UK companies involved with it to suss out how to do offshore wind. And as we all know, Japan is gonna, is headed there right now and is going to need a little bit of a primer on how to do it. And, and, well, they should because, uh, there’s been some really successful efforts in the UK and up north, Northern Europe.

Uh, so the, the goal of this is to, to get these projects underway and, and Japan’s committing all this money, which, uh, sure, it’s a nice boost to the UK at the moment. It gets a little turbulent over there if you’ve been watching the news. Rosemary [00:04:00] Tying back to your experience in Japan recently, is there a big push internally?

Do you see that internally in Japan for offshore wind and even offshore floating wind in Japan, or are they really prepping for it in country?

Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, I’d say I went over there thinking that Japan was, like, oddly not bothered about wind energy of any flavor. Um, ’cause, you know, like onshore wind, they’ve got problems because the good ri- wind resource is right on the ridges, and they’re getting just hammered by lightning, and they’ve got some, like, really interesting responses to how they think that they should manage that, that in my opinion are just gonna kill…

Like, you would never bother to have an onshore wind farm if these, um, regulations go ahead. So offshore they have got, um, a bit of a, an, a fixed bottom resource, and they’ve had several auction rounds geared towards that, but they’re, um, they haven’t gone well. I think that, like, people have promised… It, it’s a similar story to elsewhere in the world.

Uh, people have, like, bid, like, [00:05:00] bid down to quite low prices and then not been able to deliver and pulled out. Mitsubishi just recently paid some, uh, some huge penalty for not going ahead with a, a project. There isn’t actually that much fixed bottom potential, um, for Japan. So, um, if they wanna have a significant amount of wind energy in their grid, which they should, because they’re, like, honestly it is probably the best or one of the couple of best options to provide big chunks of their electricity supply, then it needs to be floating.

Um, and the government is actually pushing on that. I thought they weren’t doing too much, but I did talk to someone from this group, Flora. It is a group that is, um, that, that is trying to form partnerships with other countries, but also with manufacturers to try and set the framework up so that it can, like, l- lay the groundwork for commercialization to happen without being prescriptive.

Flora is in there [00:06:00] to try and, you know, get the pieces in place to be able to allow, um, you know, uh, innovation and competition to happen much, much faster.

Allen Hall: What’s the most complicated piece technically that needs to be solved before Japan can really move forward? Is it the money piece? I mean, um, um, I said technically, but I feel like there’s always this money aspect to it, which is important, but on the technology side, i- is it, is there any technology that remains to be solved or is it just the will to do it?

Rosemary Barnes: Basically in any engineering question, the answer is money, like, when you come down to it. So, like, it’s almost boring to say, yeah, it’s, it’s money. Floating offshore wind- Too hard, too niche for most people to consider it a mainstream thing, but it’s the legitimate, like, good contender for Japan. And you know what?

That presents opportunity. It can actually be good to have to do something hard. Um, and Japan has the opportunity to be the [00:07:00] country where, you know, it’s the country where floating wind makes the most sense, so they can be the ones, if they’re smart about it, they can be the ones where the smart technologies evolve.

There will at least be little niche things that they develop that will go on to succeed, and Japan really needs some new big manufacturing industry to… Like, their car industry is obviously, um, has been so important, the automotive manufacturing, and it’s declining now relative to China. Um, so I am also hopeful that they can, you know, build that up a bit more, but I don’t think that they’re going to, you know, topple China, so they are looking for new industries that will be the new…

Yeah, do for them what the auto industry did from, yeah, from the ’70s onwards. Actually, you know, like, you can tie it back in a nice loop back to the oil crisis in the ’70s because that’s when the world was like, “Oh, actually small, efficient cars are, are quite a smart idea.” And Japan had those because it was so [00:08:00] constrained in terms of, you know, the oil that it could bring in was expensive.

Not having their own fossil resources, they learned to conserve it, and then that turned out to be, you know, a big advantage for them.

Allen Hall: Using the 1970s gas price crisis and the movement towards Japanese cars in the United States, I mean, timing is everything. And Japan was in, uh, Honda in particular, was in the United States.

I think Toyota was too, if I remember correctly. And when gas prices went through the roof, uh, yeah, they were very efficient cars, and not the most reliable at the moment, but obviously they’ve changed quite a bit and s- they are, particularly Honda and Toyota, are probably two of the more reliable blan- brands you can buy in the States today.

So things change, right? You’re just getting your foot in the door. But that, that break point is, is coming pretty soon, I would say, in, in terms of timing. I- is it the right time for Japan to move into floating offshore? It’s gonna be within the next couple of years, don’t you think, Rosie?

Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, yeah, def- [00:09:00] definitely.

Um, and yeah, I mean, I, it, it, it does frustrate me that any money is being spent on, um, hydrogen and ammonia imports. I, I would just rather that they just, just, just do the LNG until you figure out alternatives.

Allen Hall: That makes more sense.

Rosemary Barnes: Gas is better than… You know, like ammonia, for example, they’re locking in these coal power plants for additional years, making investments, um, you know, thinking that this is gonna be part of their future.

They’re gonna end up burning coal, y- you know? At least gas is flexible enough to support renewables, and so it can, you know, like speed the rollout of, of wind. And they do have a fair bit of solar too in Japan. Floating solar, actually. They invented that there, and have actually got quite, quite a lot of it.

Allen Hall: Gas is gonna be the answer short term. I think in the relationship between the United States and Japan has always been pretty solid since after World War II, that the United States would be willing partners to help Japan stand up any [00:10:00] technology, probably except for wind, which is just bizarre.

Rosemary Barnes: One of your maybe, um, unexpected legacies in Japan was, I say you, I mean the USA, they’ve got, um, not just the, like, silly American power plug design where you’ve got, like, the parallel pins that just fall out, so they’ve got that.

But they also have 110 volts. Like, where else in the world is, is, thinks that’s a good idea? I had, um, my little travel steamer I’d taken over there, hairdryer, useless. Absolutely useless.

Allen Hall: That’s all you

Matthew Stead: need.

Rosemary Barnes: I blame you personally, Allen. I hold you personally responsible for my wrinkled clothing.

Allen Hall: Delamination and bondline failures in blades are difficult problems to detect early. These hidden issues can cost you millions in repairs and lost energy production. CIC NDT are specialists to detect these critical flaws before they become expensive burdens. Their nondestructive [00:11:00] test technology penetrates deep into blade materials to find voids and cracks traditional inspections completely miss.

CIC NDT maps every critical defect, delivers actionable reports, and provides support to get your blades back in service. So visit cicndt.com because catching blade problems early will save you millions

Well, the wind service sector is consolidating as we’ve all watched over the last year or two, and Mjolner Wind Service is one of the most aggressive buyers in the field. Uh, the Danish company has signed to acquire Cover Wind Solutions of Spain, including Cover Sun Solutions and Cover Renewable, with the deal expected to close by the end of June.

This is Mjolner’s 11th acquisition since 2023. Now, Cover Wind fills a geographic gap for Mjolner. Uh, they are [00:12:00] involved in Spain and France and, uh, already involved in covering the Nordics a little bit and Central Europe. So there’s a, a big play here, and, and decommissioning is really the, the story underneath of th- all this is on the decommissioning side.

Uh, Mjolner views turbine end-of-life services as an important future growth area, and obviously it is. Particularly in Spain, there’s been a lot of turbines that will be, uh, brought down and new turbines put up in the next 10 years, and Cover Wind gives Mjolner that ability. And as we all know, Mjolner just recently acquired our Canadian friends, AC883.

So yeah, they have been on quite the spin recently, and that’s not even Yeah, sl- a sliver of what’s happening on the consolidation effort, uh, we didn’t talk about last week, but we, we should have, which was Fairwind acquiring Rope Partner in the States. And Rope Partner is a [00:13:00] longtime blade repair company and has been seen for years, as long as I can remember honestly, as the go-to blade experts on complex repairs.

The, the, the most trained up, most, uh, technicians. On the technician side, they’re, they, they, they always had the highest trained people to what I remember, and also they would ta- tackle some of the most complex blade problems, and now they’re part of Fairwind. So there is movement, Matthew. A, a lot more than I thought there would be, because after COVID, a lot of companies just disappeared, but now it does seem like they’re being acquired, which is a, a good result, I guess.

Matthew Stead: Yeah, I think there’s a strong opportunity, and, uh, and maybe the first point is that actually doing an M&A successfully is actually really hard. Um, I, I’ve personally been through two, uh, two M&As, um, and it is, it is really hard to get an M&A right. And so I think, you know, [00:14:00] these companies are showing that, um, you learn, you can do better, and, you know, it, it, it is hard.

So congratulations for them for achieving that. Um, but the second part I think is also, you know, the industry maturing, uh, gaining scale is also, you know, necessary and, you know, driving, you know, but– and these people should be able to drive their, you know, better margins and so forth through, through scale.

So, you know, I, I think, um, I think we had a bit of quick chat about it previously, but, um, this is, you know, a really good thing.

Allen Hall: Does it change the way we think about, uh, independent service providers?

Matthew Stead: Yeah, I think it’s gonna continue. I mean, this is not the end of it. Um, you know, in– even in what we do, there’s been various, you know, mergers and acquisitions in, in our space or, and investments, you know, cross-investments.

So I, I just see this continuing. You know, like SkySpecs, um, you know, growing their, their CMS, um, business and their financial arm. Um, this is just gonna continue.

Allen Hall: [00:15:00] Is it more activity, uh, related to the availability of AI? It’s– It does seem like that’s playing into some of the decisions that are being made on the mergers and acquisition in renewables, is you start to see more discussion of, hey, we’re going to, uh, apply new techniques, machine learning.

A lot of times you’ll see that, particularly in Europe, and then here in the States it’s almost all AI, where they’re- In order to have a, a very successful AI venture, you need to bring in the brainpower to feed that AI. And it does seem like there’s a lot of, of senior companies getting grabbed that could be part of a larger artificial intelligence play.

Matthew Stead: You remind me of the, um, the dotcom boom and bust. I don’t know. I’m, I’m a little bit more skeptical, um, on the value actions on the, on the AI side of things.

Allen Hall: Really?

Matthew Stead: It certainly… It’s a massive, um, massive, um, transformation for the industry, and you know, I mean, what I, what, what we can all do is, is massive.

[00:16:00] But, um, my former employer, a consulting business, bought a AI company for a billion dollars, and I, I, I just can’t see the value. So, um, anyway, I’m, I’m a bit skeptical about valuations and AI, and, um, I’m not as bullish as many people are.

Allen Hall: Really? Uh, because it does seem like more recently, the shift has been from the number of engineers you have in your company times a million dollars a head, that’s the way it was, uh, not that long ago.

And now it does turn into how many senior people you have, that’s the multiplier. Because they’re trying to take that knowledge and all that data resource that you have, like at a, a rope partner where they’ve prepared really complex problems for years. That data set is amazing if you could get your fingers on it.

Matthew Stead: Uh, yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I completely agree with you, but I just think it’s being oversold and overcooked and overbaked.

Allen Hall: I see it as growing instead of it declining. I don’t think it’s cooling off. I think we’re just at the precipice of [00:17:00] it. As we get better at using some of these AI tools, if we’re gonna build data centers in space, ’cause that’s gonna be the, the linchpin to all this, is if it gets to data centers in space, then we can leverage massive data sets and learn something from them and get better.

Matthew Stead: I love change, but, um, I, I think that’s ri- ridiculous, to be honest. Um, I know we’ve spoken about it a number of times, but data centers in space just seems stupid to me. But, but yeah, going back to your original point, Alan, um, yeah, we, we can definitely do better with you know, more insights around our data and getting more out of our data.

I mean, data is the new oil. You know, we’ve been saying that for the last 10 years. Um, yeah, I’m, I’m full, I’m fully on board with that, but I’m just a little bit of a, a little bit of a negative Nancy on, um, some of these overhype

Allen Hall: The line to connect a new wind project to the U.S. grid has been one of the industry’s most stubborn bottlenecks.

And a new report from Advanced Energy [00:18:00] United drafted by Grid Strategies and the Brattle Group finds that seven major U.S. grid operators have made progress, at least some, on generator interconnection reform since FERC Order 2023 took effect. So that was the order that said we need to fix this interconnect queue problem.

There are just too many people in line and we need to give some ranking to them. But progress on paper has not yet translated into projects moving through the queue faster. And a newer problem is emerging. Fast track interconnection policies at MISO, PJM, and SPP are directing limited system headroom towards, drum roll, utility-affiliated and fossil-heavy resources at the expense of independent clean energy developers.

So the game is being rigged a little bit at the moment where they want to push forward [00:19:00] gas and other fossil fuel type generation in front of solar and wind, which are less costly and quicker to get up and running. This can’t last long, right? E- eventually the people living in, uh, MISO, PJM, and SPP are gonna have a little bit of a revolt on how power prices are gonna bump up accordingly.

Matthew Stead: There’s been numerous other attempts to stifle wind, um, and those numerous other attempts, uh, tend to be overwritten and, uh, ruled out and thrown out in courts. And, um, it, it just seems like this is, well, if that didn’t work, we’ll, we’ll try something else.

Allen Hall: It’s a delay tactic.

Matthew Stead: Yeah, exactly. Then becomes another one.

Well, you know, just wait for that one to be thrown out.

Allen Hall: I don’t know who said the famous saying, time is money, but time is money, and if you can [00:20:00] delay a project from happening, it costs money to sit on the sidelines and you’re, you’re paying interest on a loan or your investors are getting upset because they’re not seeing the returns.

So the easy game in most situations like this is just to drive the schedule to the right, even if it’s by a couple of months. It’s expensive.

Matthew Stead: Yeah. If there’s two things I wish I didn’t know about, the first one is telecommunications and how rubbish it is. I just wish I didn’t, wish I didn’t know about telecommunications and the need for cellular and satellite and blah, blah, blah.

I wish I didn’t know about that. The other one I wish I didn’t know about, because I wish it wasn’t a problem, was just grid connections and grid and networks.

Allen Hall: How bad it is.

Matthew Stead: Yeah. Rosie, if you can jump in, but you know, the New South Wales-South Australian Interconnector Grid, um, is just being energized now.

I don’t know if it’s one or two years late. Um- And they’re trying to recover a billion dollars from the general [00:21:00] public

Rosemary Barnes: Is it only a billion? I thought it, when I looked at the stats, um, it was like near tripling of the, of the project cost

Matthew Stead: My understanding is the government screwed it up or the, uh, the, the operator screwed it up in terms of the transmission lines, and then want, wants to claim it back from the general public ’cause they, they screwed up.

Rosemary Barnes: Yeah. It’s a weird thing ’cause you, you know, it’s like, I think it’s like this everywhere in the world that the, yeah, transmission companies or network companies, they get a regulated rate of return on their, on their project, so they invest. But then it’s like what’s that rate of return for? It’s not money for nothing, right?

It’s for them, you know, like taking on some risk and y- you know, some sorts of things are, are built into that. Um, but it’s kind of like if you, you get that amount approved and then you stuff up your project management so it drags out and takes a lot of money, then you’re also gonna be compensated additionally for having done a bad job with your project [00:22:00] management.

The kinds of delays are not unforeseeable. You know, like I’ve been a project manager in my past. You don’t just make your best case scenario and then kind of just assume that that’s, um, how much it will cost and not, y- you know, not come up with, um, contingency plans for if, uh, if predictable things happen.

It’s not, there’s no like black swan events in here. It’s just, um, you know, things that happen every now and then. And it is one of those like key principles of like delivering on big projects, um, that Ben Slibbert, you know, in that, that book, um, How Big Things Get Done, he goes over and over and over again that you need to keep your project as short as possible ’cause the longer it is, the more like surprises you’ll have along the way and it will cost more.

And I just don’t think that they, like they need to go read that book and then do a better job with their project planning and scenarios.

Allen Hall: You know who’s read that book clearly is, I, I’ll bring up the name, I know it’s gonna cause controversy, [00:23:00] Elon.

Rosemary Barnes: I knew you were gonna say that.

Allen Hall: Well, you know why I say that?

Because there was an interview with him and I was skimming through some nonsense and then this little interview popped up, and he was talking about how quickly they need to get things rolling. And it’s like one year you’re getting s- first year you’re getting started, second year you’re just growing like crazy, and third year is infinity.

And the only way that makes sense is that you’re just pouring every resource on this problem to shorten the schedule That’s it

Rosemary Barnes: You, you do. You have, you have to do the, the, you know, the parts of your project where surprises are gonna happen. Like you can… There are surprises and you know, don’t know what they, they are gonna be.

However, you can guarantee that there will be surprises. Like you, you know going into a years-long project that several things are gonna happen that are, you know, gonna surprise you. And so you can plan for that. And the best planning that you can do is to make sure that once you start actually, you, you know, you’re gonna spend time in planning to, um, get it right, but once you actually start [00:24:00] the phase of your project where delays cost money, then you, you just plan as, do everything you can to keep that as short as possible, and it will be, it’ll be cheaper.

Even if it sounds more expensive, oh, we’ve gotta, you know, pay crews overtime to, you know, do a night shift or something like that, um, you know, you need to consider, consider that because the, there will be delays and they cost. And it’s just, like at this point, maybe 100 years ago you could get away with being surprised by that, but y- you know, like project management has come far enough now that we know, we know this.

It’s just basics.

Allen Hall: But infrastructure projects are tough because they don’t see the revenue on the backside that much sooner. It’s sort of a very flat 3% growth industry Unlike a lot of other things

Rosemary Barnes: But that’s it, like just to contain costs, you have to have a small project.

Allen Hall: They will, but they’ve always historically gotten paid for those overruns and continue to make their 3%.

If there was some sort… Back to Matthew’s point, if there was some sort of, uh, [00:25:00] disincentive to be late, they would hurry, maybe even spend a little bit of their own money, but there would have to be some massive upside, which is the problem, right? They can’t have a massive upside.

Rosemary Barnes: But that’s why I’m s- I’m saying that the situation where costs blow out and they still get…

Like, they get… They make more money by having done a bad job because it costs more. You know, like that is not, it’s not okay.

Allen Hall: Is it more money or just paying the bills that they had when they were building the thing?

Rosemary Barnes: It depends how much we let them get away with, but their preference is to make, just be, “Oh, we could never have known that there would be a flood.”

It’s like, okay, yeah, like, was it like a 1 in 50 years flood or something? So yeah, on average, that particular event wasn’t gonna happen, but there’s probably, you know, like 20 different categories of 1 in 50 year things that could have happened, and if your project lasts for five years, you’re gonna have a few of those.

You just are. You know? It’s not, it’s not bad luck. It’s just like, just normal statistical variation [00:26:00] that y- Yeah, so I, I, I really think it’s important to, um, to not just say, “Oh. Oh, poor you,” ’cause it’s, it always sounds like a sob story. “Oh, a flood. Who could have known?”

Allen Hall: Who could have known it rains?

Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, I mean, I, I don’t know.

Like, I often talk about how people don’t know what, um, engineers do, and we don’t get enough res- respect for, for what we do, and people don’t get it. But I think project managers is, if anything, worse. People don’t respect project management as a, um, a, I don’t know, is it a profession? But, you know, as an ex- ex- field of expertise and don’t, don’t know how much of a difference it makes to have a good one, and also that it is not that hard to be a good project manager.

You just have to actually do it.

Matthew Stead: Can I make a suggestion that actually is the reverse of Darwin theory? We’ve got to come up with a name, but you know, the dumber you are, the more money you make. Also, for the record, um, Elon does have a lot of, um, philosophies and approaches which I do support. The efficiency, automating things after you’ve done them manually, only [00:27:00] doing the bare minimum, you know, all those sorts of things, doing things fast.

Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, there’s a lot, a lot of good product development and engineering that you can learn from Elon, and you do not have to take the, like, weird personal stuff along with it. You are able to pick and choose which aspects you, you learn from.

Allen Hall: But it does take a specific kind of person to weather that storm.

If you wanna play in that sandbox, y- you better be ready because it’ll be hard and fast and not very forgiving. So you just have to know that going in, which can be great, and it can be a great experience, uh, for a lot of engineers, but it isn’t for everyone. As wind energy professionals, staying informed is crucial, and let’s face it, difficult.

That’s why the Uptime Podcast recommends PES Wind Magazine. PES Wind offers a diverse range of in-depth articles and expert insights that dive into the most pressing issues facing our energy future. Whether you’re an [00:28:00]industry veteran or new to wind, PES Wind has the high-quality content you need. Don’t miss out.

Visit peswind.com today. In this quarter’s PES Wind magazine, which you can download at peswind.com, there’s an article from TGS 4C about vessel traffic around offshore wind farms. And this is kind of interesting bec- because they looked at some major wind farms off the coast of the UK, Dogger Bank B, Dogger Bank C, and Sofia.

Uh, and obviously there’s a lot of marine traffic around those, but you don’t really realize the scale and how, uh, it affects the, the traffic on the water. The– When they had looked at these three wind farms, they realized, uh, they had about 860, uh, transits in 2021 around that area, and that went to more than 20,000 by [00:29:00] 2025.

So the amount of economic and commercial activity that was happening around those wind farms exploded. And when you have that many ships in the water, it does change the nature of that area and also how other ships transit through the area, around that area. Uh, it’s an interesting piece because if you look at where those wind farms are, Matthew, th- that’s kind of a narrow stretch in there where there is a lot of ship traffic already.

So y- you create this, uh, artificial barrier for some of the ship traffic, and you’re trying to understand how that is affecting the flow in and out. But I think the, the bigger piece is you can tell how well a development is progressing on offshore wind by looking at the ships and who’s where and when.

Matthew Stead: I think this is interesting topic. Um, I, I– To be honest, I don’t completely get it. Can you explain it to me?

Allen Hall: If I’m an investor in these projects, if I’m the government, if [00:30:00] I’m the, uh, the power company that’s gonna handle the power coming off these sites, I really need to know how it’s going. And the way that I look at it in the States when I look at offshore projects here, ’cause we could do something very similar, who’s out on, on the ocean?

Where are they? What tower are they at? How many towers are running? You can kinda tell that. Are they, are they just doing surveys or are they laying cable? Or is there something more active happening? And where are the ships from? Are they installation vessels? Are they driving monopiles? What’s going on out in the water?

It does give you a really good sense where they are in the project. Kind of back to Rosemary’s point on, on managing big projects, you– schedule is everything You can tell. You can really tell.

Matthew Stead: Thinking about it a different way. So it’s a bit more like shadow monitoring. So it’s just a way of, it’s a way of independently monitoring and checking progress, making sure that there’s transparency as to what’s going on.

Allen Hall: I think there’s a lot of [00:31:00] value in that data set. And as, uh, more operators start to use that data set and more companies start to use that data set globally, uh, they’re gonna be doing offshore projects, I think, differently in, in terms of efficiency. They- they’re learning as they go.

Matthew Stead: Yeah. Isn’t that one of the classical, um, sort of mathematical problems about how to optimize, uh, courier deliveries?

We’ve gotta talk about quantum computing at some point too, so.

Allen Hall: We probably should. But for right now, I need everybody to go to peswind.com and download this quarter’s magazine. A lot of good articles in there, and it’s a great free download. Tons to learn. Go to peswind.com. That wraps up another episode of the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast.

If today’s discussion sparked any questions or ideas, we’d love to hear from you. Reach out to us on LinkedIn. And if you found value in today’s conversation, please leave us a review. It really helps other wind energy professionals discover this [00:32:00] show. For Matthew and Rosemary, I am Allen Hall, and we’ll see you here next week on the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast.

Japan Backs Floating Wind, US Grid Sidelines Clean Energy

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If I were asked to explain the huge correlation between poorly educated people and Trump supporters, I’d point to the quote from Helen Keller at left.

Tolerance

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SunZia Switches On, Ørsted Weighs Chinese Turbines

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SunZia Switches On, Ørsted Weighs Chinese Turbines

Allen covers SunZia coming online as America’s largest wind farm, Ørsted’s stance on Chinese turbines, a record floating platform leaving China, Canada’s first offshore wind bidders, and a centuries-old North Sea shipwreck.

Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTubeLinkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

Good Monday everyone.

America just switched on the biggest wind farm it has ever built. Out in New Mexico … a vast field of spinning turbines called SunZia. Enough power for more than a million homes across the Southwest. It is a landmark. It may be the last landmark for some time. After this year … forecasters expect annual onshore wind additions to fall … all the way to twenty thirty. The tax credits that powered the boom … expire this year. Add tariffs … supply troubles … local opposition … and a federal permitting freeze. One developer put it plainly. Capital investments … frozen. Solar is cheaper now. Batteries are faster. And the wind industry did not see the breadth of the campaign against it. So the biggest American wind farm ever … arrives just as the road ahead narrows.

Now … cross the Atlantic to Denmark. Ørsted … the offshore giant half-owned by the Danish state … is being asked a hard question. Will it buy Chinese wind turbines? Its chief executive will not say no. Right now … he says … it is not expected. But they are keeping an eye on it. Analysts call that a wake-up call. Because the Chinese builders offer lower cost … faster delivery … and bigger rotors. And if a European champion turns east for turbines … that is a signal Europe is losing its edge. Not everyone is buying it. Britain has banned Chinese turbines from its offshore projects. The competitiveness fight … is just beginning.

Now set to sail from southern China. The world’s largest tension-leg floating wind platform. Sixteen megawatts. More than three hundred meters tall … and nearly eight thousand tons. It left port headed for the deep sea. And its power will run straight to an offshore oil field … clean wind … feeding fossil-fuel production. China connected more than three-quarters of the world’s new offshore wind last year. As the shallow sites fill up … the industry moves into deeper water. And the deep water … is where floating wind grows up.

Across the Pacific … a brand-new frontier is opening. Canada cleared the first bidders for its very first offshore wind farms. Off the coast of Nova Scotia … seven qualified players … from nine countries. The province dreams big. A megaproject called Wind West … forty gigawatts … far more than the region could ever use itself. The first phase alone … an estimated sixty billion dollars. Enough surplus power to supply a quarter of all Canada’s demand. The formal call for bids comes later this year.

And finally … a story that comes up from the seabed. While surveying the site of a future wind farm in the North Sea … Ørsted found something far older than any turbine. Three lead ingots … resting beside the bones of a wooden shipwreck. Late sixteen-hundreds … maybe early seventeen-hundreds. A Dutch vessel … likely bound for home … lost on the run from England to the Netherlands. Seventy kilograms each … mined, it seems, in the very English hills they will now return to.

And that’s the state of the wind industry for the 28th of June 2026. Join us for the Uptime Wind Energy podcast tomorrow.

SunZia Switches On, Ørsted Weighs Chinese Turbines

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