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Interview Transcript
Mitch Ratcliffe 0:10
Hello. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in this beautiful planet of ours. Welcome to Sustainability in Your Ear. This is the podcast conversation about accelerating the transition to a sustainable, carbon-neutral society, and I’m your host, Mitch Ratcliffe. Thanks for joining the conversation today, and it’s one I particularly enjoy — talking to a young person. Well, actually, two of them, making a positive impact.
Textile waste has become one of the most stubborn problems in the American waste stream. Americans throw away roughly 17 million tons of clothing every year, and a great majority of it ends up buried in landfills, where natural fibers slowly decompose and release methane — a greenhouse gas many times more potent than carbon dioxide. Over a century, as things break down in a landfill, clothing is uniquely wasteful, because so much of what gets discarded is still perfectly usable, and it’s simply been outgrown, or it’s gone out of style, or fallen out of someone’s rotation.
And the environmental cost we pay is paid twice: once when a still-good garment is thrown away, and again when a brand-new one is manufactured to replace it, consuming water, energy, and raw materials in the process. And nowhere is that double cost more visible than with children’s school uniforms. Kids outgrow them on a predictable annual cycle, long before the clothing wears out. And for families on a tight budget, replacing a uniform every year is a recurring expense that arrives whether the household can afford it or not.
The result is a steady stream of good clothing headed for the trash and a parallel stream of families struggling to pay for its replacement — two problems that, looked at the right way, turn out to be each other’s solution. And our guests today saw that connection when they were still in middle school.
Ethan and Desmond Hua are the founders of HOPE — H-O-P-E — the HOPE Uniforms Program. HOPE stands for Help Our Planet Earth, a student-led nonprofit that they launched in 2020 in San Mateo, California. The idea was simple: collect gently used school uniforms that families had outgrown and redistribute them for free to families who need them.
What began in a single elementary school run out of the family garage has grown into an operation serving 10 schools across three districts, and to date, HOPE has kept more than 14,000 uniforms out of landfills, redistributed over 12,000 of them back to families, and served more than 1,400 households, saving those families an estimated $141,000 in clothing costs along the way.
The spark, as Ethan has said, was a single moment: a classmate came to school in shorts on a cold day because he couldn’t afford another pair of pants to last until laundry day. And from that, Ethan and Desmond built something with real operational sophistication — an online request system with a live inventory tracker, and a website in English, Spanish, and Mandarin Chinese to reach every corner of his multilingual community. They’ve since secured a donation of 2,000 brand-new uniforms from Costco, and their work has earned Ethan a 2025 Gloria Barron Prize for Young Heroes, a Samaritan House Young Samaritan Award, and coverage on national television.
So we’re going to talk with Ethan and Desmond about what started it all, why reuse is one of the most underrated tools in the sustainability toolkit, and the environmental case for keeping a garment whole and in circulation rather than recycling or replacing it. We’ll dig into how they built a real logistics operation as teenagers and why they made the program multilingual from the start, as well as how they designed it so that asking for help feels routine rather than uncomfortable. And we’ll look ahead at what’s next for HOPE, and what they’d tell any listener sitting on an idea but waiting for money, permission, or someone else to go first.
So, to learn more, visit hopeuniformsprogram.com. That’s all one word, no space, no dash — hopeuniformsprogram.com. And if you’re a teen making a difference for the planet, check out the Barron Prize at barronprize.org. Again, all one word, no space, no dash — barronprize.org — to learn how to enter your work for recognition by the Gloria Barron Prize program.
Can a teenager with a garage, a good idea, and a little persistence really make a dent in two of our most intractable problems at once — textile waste and the cost of raising a family? Let’s find out, right after this.
Mitch Ratcliffe 4:30
Welcome to the show, Ethan and Desmond. Hey, introduce yourselves so people can recognize the difference.
Ethan Hua 4:42
Hi, I’m Ethan. I just graduated as a senior.
Desmond Hua 4:46
My name is Desmond, and I just finished my freshman year at Aragon High School.
Ethan Hua 4:51
And we’re the co-founders of the HOPE Uniforms Program, HOPE standing for Help Our Planet Earth.
Mitch Ratcliffe 4:56
You guys have done some amazing work already, and I just want to start off by — tell me about how this started. You saw a classmate come to school in shorts, and it was a cold day, and he was wearing them because they couldn’t afford a pair of pants until laundry day. What went through your mind, and how did you come to the conclusion, “I can solve that problem”?
Desmond Hua 5:13
Well, I guess what went through our minds was that when we were in elementary school, when we saw our friends, we realized that we outgrow so much clothes ourselves when we grew up, and we wondered, what do we do with them when we outgrow them? So when we went — how do…
Ethan Hua 5:27
…they go?
Desmond Hua 5:28
Yeah, like to—
Ethan Hua 5:29
Narnia. Like, some place.
Desmond Hua 5:33
Yeah. So when we went home, we talked to our parents, and we asked them, where does our clothes go? And they said we used to just throw them away, don’t usually have a better purpose. So me and my brother wanted to give them a new life, something to reuse those uniforms, and so we actually founded HOPE around five years ago.
Ethan Hua 5:54
One of the biggest travesties that we saw in these uniforms is that they’re very reusable, they’re gently used, there’s nothing wrong with them, and it’s a shame that, with this little time that we spent with the uniform, they’re going thrown away — when they’re able to be perfectly used and given a second life. In fact, we tell that these uniforms not only have a second life in them, but a third life and a fourth life as well, and because of that, it just seemed like a shame to be tossed away after one single use.
Mitch Ratcliffe 6:23
You picked the name “Help Our Planet Earth,” but this program obviously does something else. It helps families just as much as the planet. Which did you really feel like was the right focus at the time you launched?
Desmond Hua 6:34
I think the main focus at first was our community, because we, you know, grew up in the elementary school. But then at the same time our mission was also helping the earth, because this cause not only impacted the community, but also took out over 40 tons of textile waste from the landfills — 40 metric tons of textile waste, or 30, 30 metric tons of textile waste out of the landfills. So we wanted to cover both aspects while we’re doing HOPE.
Ethan Hua 7:06
So yes — when we first addressed this problem, the community, it was based on a problem that we experienced, that we witnessed from peers. However, we did act, because we’re Scouts, and we’ve been part of the Scouting program since kindergarten, so we have a lot of sustainability virtues instilled in us, like Leave No Trace principles, and we thought that there’s something we can give back to the environment.
Mitch Ratcliffe 7:33
Clothing reuse, thrift shopping, is a big deal these days. Is clothing reuse gaining traction? Is it becoming cool to say these clothes are being reused? Or is that still a point of resistance in people who you might give a uniform to?
Ethan Hua 7:48
I think that there’s, in the youth, there’s a little disparity, but I guess between the youth and the more grown-up adults. We live — me and Desmond live — 10 minutes away from San Francisco, and some people don’t know this, but San Francisco is one of the thrifting capitals of the nation, and because of that, it’s very trendy. I thrift. A lot of kids love thrifting as a hobby; it’s something fun to do on the weekends, so there’s nothing wrong with thrifting. However, there are certain stigmas surrounding getting used clothes, and it’s understandable.
However, to combat that, what we do is, once we get our donations from the community, we process them, we check them for any rips, stains, tears, make sure they’re gently used. We want these families to have — we want these uniforms to have — many, many lives, not just one life or two. We’re in for the long, the long sustainable impact, long-term impact. Because of that, we check them, and what we pride ourselves in is ensuring that our families are repeat customers.
So we get all our uniforms from families all across the community — we get them from families who no longer need to use their uniforms — so we receive them through donation bins in each of our partner schools’ offices. We drop them off in these wooden bins that we’ve built, and then once we take these uniforms back, we process them, we do the check, as I said. And on our website, a family would request, okay, I need three articles of size-medium white polo tops. And our website is multilingual, because we serve a very diverse customer base across the community, across the Bay Area.
And on these websites we see, okay, this family at so-and-so school needs this amount of uniforms at this size. Let’s go check our inventory — a spreadsheet of all the uniforms we have in our inventory. Currently, we have roughly 2,000; it’s all sitting in our garage. And then we refill this order, we put it in the bag, we drop it off to the school, and these families would receive them. And, say, it’s probably six months down the line, hopefully: they wear the uniforms, they take good care of them, and they outgrow them, and at this point they’re back at stage one. The family goes, “Hey, at least out of four, I have these uniforms that they’ve outgrown — what do I do with them?” And they send it back to us.
So because of that, we want to make sure these uniforms are kept very nice, they’ve been spot-checked, so the families are happy with their services and they will reuse us in the future, thereby forming an eco-friendly cycle — a long-term sustainability impact.
Mitch Ratcliffe 10:31
So, by getting them involved in the return process too, you’re also reinforcing the value of reuse, and that makes it feel more normal to them to get what would, in earlier generations, be described as hand-me-downs. Does that activation of their concern about the planet play a big part in that messaging?
Ethan Hua 10:49
We try to include that message — we do include that messaging in all our announcements. That’s one of our main selling points. However, it’s hard to beat the word “free” when it comes to advertising to the community, especially when it’s across different cultures or languages — Spanish, Chinese, and English. It’s a lot more direct to say, hey, we have free uniforms that are reused through our program, and it’s a really cool benefit that we prevent them from going to landfills. One of our most proud statistics, actually — Des, you might want to share the statistics. Yeah, okay. So the reason why I’m sharing this with you is that, since inception, we have diverted roughly 14,900 garments from landfills and given back out to the community roughly 12,700 uniforms. Desmond, do you want to share our most proud statistics that sprung up from that?
Desmond Hua 11:45
So I think we’ve roughly also helped around 1,400 families, and we’ve also saved families around $140,000 through uniforms, so they don’t have to keep buying uniforms over and over as they grow up. Also, the methane equivalent to carbon emissions is around 3,000 kilograms, and, as I said, the 30 metric tons is saved from the landfills through HOPE’s Uniform Program, and those are some of our proudest statistics.
Ethan Hua 12:16
When we — so this is our message to the community — when we usually talk about HOPE, we mention the 30 to 30,000 methane-equivalent carbon emissions avoided from landfill diversion. So when uniforms reach landfills, what someone might ask is, why are they so harmful to the atmosphere? The answer to that question is that when they sit in these landfills, over time they decompose — first goes the cotton, then go the poly fibers, the plastics — and throughout the years it takes for a uniform garment to decompose, it releases harmful greenhouse gases, such as methane. Especially methane: methane is 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide to our atmosphere, and throughout these many years it just releases more and more of these gases, and it builds up, adding to the greenhouse effect, warming up our planet.
Mitch Ratcliffe 13:08
Both of you have articulated a number of benefits and a number of the concerns that people should be aware of. You mentioned that “free” is the driving force in a lot of this — the messaging, and the reuse generally. When you think about how your generation is growing up in a world where it’s very difficult to be unaware of the environmental consequences of our life, are we beginning to see a change in their relationship with materials like clothing that you see as promising for a more sustainable economy?
Desmond Hua 13:42
I feel like I would say so, because — I think not just here, but around the world — there’s many ways people are trying to find ways to reuse, recycle, and, right, there’s like new methods, and, I guess, new technology now that we’re able to access, to find ways to reduce carbon emissions and make things more eco-friendly.
Ethan Hua 14:07
Just to specify your question — are you asking, is the next generation more willing to reuse?
Mitch Ratcliffe 14:13
More willing to reuse, but also, to what Desmond was just saying — are we also seeing a generation grow up that recognizes they have tools to do things with material that we weren’t able to do before? When I was growing up, there was a garbage can and there was nothing else. Now there’s a recycling bin too. How do you imagine the world will be configured to support what your generation recognizes it needs to do with regard to reuse, with creating a circular economy?
Ethan Hua 14:42
I think, of course, we’re a lot more well-equipped to deal with the climate crisis, and, more importantly, a lot of people are a lot more aware. For example, we know a lot about the textile world because we run a uniform organization. But one thing that we’ve noticed has taken on in the industry is that a lot more fabrics have been developed to become more eco-friendly, such as hemp. Hemp is a little coarse of a fabric, so… very comfortable, but it’s all plant-based. Well, it’s a lot more plant-based than just microfibers and plastics, and it’s very durable as well, and it seems like that could be a possible trend, and something that the textile industry is going towards in the future. So, trends like that — just seeing things like that — it’s very encouraging to see that there are good people concerned about our future and thinking of keeping that in mind.
Mitch Ratcliffe 15:48
So, you’ve run this out of your family’s garage, as you said, but you’ve also built an inventory management system. Tell us about how you learned to run an operation like this, because that’s another key to unlocking the potential your generation has to make a really massive difference in the way the economy runs.
Desmond Hua 16:06
I think, in the beginning, in order to talk to families and reach out to families, we actually had to do a really slow system where we just had to email back and forth. We realized, you know, if we want the operation to grow or to improve, it would require a much more mechanical process. So I think we started to use a spreadsheet, taking everything that came in, managing how much of each uniform we have, roughly, and what we’re giving out. So, like, we have a spreadsheet of our entire inventory, and even when we do orders to give out to families, we keep track of everything we give out. So I think, in order for us to have a mechanical process and to know what we have and how much we can help the families, and remove gas emissions — that’s how the spreadsheet would really help, because it just keeps everything in track.
Mitch Ratcliffe 17:11
So, how do you deliver the uniform once you have that need identified? Is it — you hand it to them, or do they pick it up?
Desmond Hua 17:21
So we actually drop it off at their school’s front office, and they can just pick it up at the school.
Ethan Hua 17:29
We send them an announcement to come pick it up, as well as the school does, to their emails.
Mitch Ratcliffe 17:33
So, is it getting easier with the new tools — the vibe-coding tools and things like that — for you to start to solve some of these problems? Have you explored them?
Ethan Hua 17:42
Oh, yeah. We have automation. We have, like, automated emails to the families that, yes, your order is in queue, it’s coming up, we’re working on it, and we have ways to let them know that, yeah, your order is ready for pickup. And social media is a very great tool for that — we use Instagram. Follow us on our HOPE Uniforms Program Instagram. It’s a very good way to let families know en masse. And one thing that I’d like to add to Desmond’s point: in our journey of collecting uniform orders from families, originally in 2020 when we started this program, we were doing it by email — literally one-on-one email chains, so we’re managing 50 email chains at once, which was very logistically challenging. On top of that, we’re receiving emails not even in English — we’re in Chinese, in Vietnamese, in Spanish — so, using Google Translate, it was just a lot of steps to take to get to the final product of getting the uniforms to the family.
Desmond Hua 18:47
Yeah.
Ethan Hua 18:47
And because of that, we set up this multilingual website to help us address the multilingual, cultural diversity in our community, which was very helpful.
Mitch Ratcliffe 18:57
I guess the question I want to get to before we take a quick commercial break is: do you think the satisfaction that both of you are expressing about the impact you’re having — as well as the satisfaction people have in participating in the program — is the catalyst for jump-starting thousands of local programs to solve thousands of different problems across the country? Like keeping uniforms in circulation, but potentially collecting a lot of other things for reuse?
Ethan Hua 19:23
Is it worth it? Is that your question?
Mitch Ratcliffe 19:24
Is this the kind of thing that can inspire people to solve local problems? Do you have a template here for a solution to jump-starting the circular economy in the many small places it needs to happen?
Ethan Hua 19:38
I think it matters — or, I think true sustainability is very hard to reach. When I hear the word “sustainability” nowadays, I think of words like gourmet and adventure. What do I mean by that? So, if you look at the Merriam-Webster definition of adventure, you see it connotes risk-taking and danger, yet when you go on adventure travel, it’s rarely ever dangerous. And for gourmet — if you eat a gourmet burger at a restaurant, sometimes it’s not even that tasty, yet it’s still labeled as gourmet. Same thing with sustainability. When you hear the word “sustainability” — sustainability buildings, for example — yes, they might be carbon-neutral, yet the process to get these net-carbon-zero buildings, it’s not sustainable, like all the building practices; it takes a lot of energy and resources to get that building to energy perfection, as you could say.
And likewise, in the real world, achieving true sustainability is very, very hard, and clothing is one of these things that we noticed could have a cyclical life cycle, and being able to be reused for these many, many life cycles. Again, we’re long-term impact; it’s something that you could reuse many times, not just one or two. So, yes, I think that we are jump-starting and inspiring a lot of grassroots efforts in achieving these reuse programs. Not everything can be reused, though. However, the idea, and getting it into people’s minds, is, I think, the biggest, most important part.
Mitch Ratcliffe 21:16
And then we’ll start to solve problems. So, this is a great conversation. I want to take a quick commercial break. Folks, we’re going to be right back to continue the conversation.
Mitch Ratcliffe 21:28
Welcome back to Sustainability in Your Ear. Let’s continue the discussion with Ethan and Desmond Hua, who created Help Our Planet Earth, or HOPE — a clothing reuse program that helps teens in need while reducing the volume of textile waste headed for landfill. And Ethan was a 2025 winner of the Gloria Barron Prize for Young Heroes. Ethan, what has that recognition — as well as the Samaritan House Young Samaritan Award that you won — done for the program? Are you getting more attention now?
Ethan Hua 21:55
Yes, we are getting more attention. The biggest thing this exposure has helped us with is that it gives us credibility to talk to new schools, and then it’s just really helpful, because when we first started this program, we started with one school — me and Desmond’s elementary school — and we started by announcing it just to the couple of families at our school, saying that we have this program available, it’d be pretty cool for the environment and for other families, if you could help out. And now, instead, with this exposure to the Gloria Barron Prize and Samaritan House, and our interviews on ABC, NBC — it just helps us a lot, because schools were like, okay, these guys are legit, they’re really in the business of helping the community, they’ll do their job, and they’ve been verified by all these organizations. And because of that, it’s all the easier to spread and make a bigger impact on the community.
Mitch Ratcliffe 22:55
So, how big can this get before you outgrow your garage, and your parents say, “Look, that’s just too many uniforms”?
Ethan Hua 23:02
Well, I would say — I’m not exactly sure about the limit, that’s a good question. Yeah, it’s certainly going to reach a limit, and I think the beauty about HOPE is that anyone can do it. Yes, me and Desmond, we do have backgrounds in scouting, and we have strong sustainability virtues, however, that does not make us that unique, and students like us could take on the program. And in the long term, what I think would be great is if we could spread HOPE to other districts — like, other districts beyond what we can manage — and we’ll have HOPE in another garage.
Desmond Hua 23:47
Yeah.
Ethan Hua 23:48
And then maybe another one. And I think that is what makes HOPE — I think that is the biggest impact that HOPE could have: it’s not, of course, only the environmental impact of diverting uniforms from landfills and saving them from decomposing into the atmosphere, but it’s also putting the idea in other kids’ minds that they could do something as well. And I see a lot of kids in the Bay Area having a lot of reuse programs, like saving food waste, or other service projects in parks. I think that’s very, very powerful — just the fact that you’re doing it, and you’re telling other people about it. It puts the idea in kids’ minds, saying, I could do something like that as well.
Mitch Ratcliffe 24:29
Well, you’re also creating new communities by connecting different lingual groups — you do English, Spanish, Mandarin on the site right now. As you think about the various communities you serve and the reuse challenges that are emerging all around you — the Bay Area being a hotspot for a variety of new trends in the world — how would you use a multilingual website and other services to help people understand what they could do together to solve some of our environmental problems?
Ethan Hua 25:00
So what we like to do is fully contextualize the problem. It’s very important for families to understand that this is an issue, in order for them to fully appreciate their usage of our services. Going back to our number-one most serious statistic — the 30 metric tons of carbon emissions prevented through uniform reuse — we tell families this. We need to fully explain what goes behind that 30 metric tons. So that 30 metric tons represents the 12,700 uniforms that we’ve given back to the community; this represents all the carbon that would have gone into making 12,700 uniforms, but was saved because they used one that was pre-existing. So this carbon waste includes — when we try to calculate a rough estimate — all the carbon used through all the land that it takes to grow the cotton for these uniforms, all the water that was used to grow the cotton, all the pesticides, all the chemical dyes used to dye the uniforms, the energy that goes into making it in the factory, and all the car emissions that are emitted through that, the transportation costs to the store. It’s a long laundry list of all the things that go into making a uniform. Although it’s a lot of carbon going into a uniform, just a rough estimate, it adds up — it does make a really sizable difference when you add up all the 12,000 uniforms. And it’s important to tell the families that, because if they don’t understand what it means to reuse the uniform, then they won’t understand the true impact of their actions, and I want them to appreciate it.
Mitch Ratcliffe 26:48
Well, so that’s really what I’m getting at. Are there other areas where you can see being able to tell that story in a variety of languages, rather than just in English, which shuts out a lot of people, that we could start to activate within many communities a lot of different circular cycles? Not just uniforms, but maybe school supplies that go unused, and so forth. Have you thought about what else HOPE could eventually manage within the circular economy?
Desmond Hua 27:16
Definitely, I think so. Actually, recently I’ve been trying to expand to some schools in San Jose. They actually do especially have a need for uniforms, and seeing that, I think it’s definitely a school that would appreciate getting free uniforms. And seeing that, I think if we showed them the true meaning of what we’re trying to aim for — which is helping, or helping Planet Earth — I think the families would be more willing to, first of all, help with the eco cycle, which is donating back to HOPE, where we can, and then we can give back to them. So it’s like a process. So, but yes, there’s definitely schools around here that would appreciate HOPE.
Mitch Ratcliffe 28:06
Now, Ethan, you’ve said that meaningful change doesn’t take a lot of resources or institutional backing — just an idea and the willingness to act. For someone who’s listening, who has an idea but assumes that they need a lot of money or some permission to get started, what would you tell them?
Ethan Hua 28:23
I remember when me and Desmond started, we were very, very scared talking to adults in that moment, but deep down, we knew what we were doing was good. It was good for the community. It was going to be a benefit for the community and the environment. We didn’t have any doubt about that. Our biggest fear was that, right now, we’re just going to say the wrong thing and embarrass ourselves, but deep down we knew that it was an ultimate good — there’s no way that it couldn’t be an ultimate good for the community. And I think most people do understand: if they’re trying to launch an initiative, and it truly is a net benefit for the community, I think people deep down know what’s good, and I would say, keep pushing on that feeling.
Mitch Ratcliffe 29:21
If a student wanted to start something like HOPE in their own district, where would you point them, so they could take a first step? What did you learn that allowed you to confidently pursue that vision you just described?
Ethan Hua 29:35
It’s like — you want to foster your idea in an environment where you know it will succeed. At first, you always want to start strong, you always want to start in a community where you understand your community 100%. So we started ours in our elementary school. We knew the principal, we spoke Chinese — it was a Chinese-immersion school — so we knew that we could address this community. And I want everyone to address their own community at first. Help your community first, make sure it survives — sorry, let me say, make sure it survives, make sure it grows — until you can expand to other areas that you know can be helped.
Mitch Ratcliffe 30:21
Knowing a community is something that a lot of brands wish they could do, and you managed to get Costco to give you 2,000 new uniforms. How did that relationship emerge, and is that potentially a pointer to the new relationships you could build in order to take HOPE to the next level?
Desmond Hua 30:40
Well, what we did with Costco is, both of us actually reached out to the CEO, Ron Vachris, and we asked him if, in our local Costco area, they had any extra uniforms they could possibly donate to us.
Mitch Ratcliffe 30:57
Wait — so you sent an email to the CEO of Costco?
Desmond Hua 31:00
So what we did is, we actually reached out to Ron Vachris, the CEO of Costco, and we told him that we had such a low supply of uniforms at that time, and for—
Ethan Hua 31:11
—the back-to-school season. Yeah, our most popular demand season is back-to-school.
Desmond Hua 31:16
Yeah, so we reached out to him asking if he had any extra uniforms he could possibly donate to HOPE’s Uniform Program, and he actually responded saying yes, he does have surplus inventory. And so—
Mitch Ratcliffe 31:31
—I think that’s a nervy move, but boy, congratulations.
Desmond Hua 31:35
Thank you. Yeah, both of us. Yeah.
Mitch Ratcliffe 31:37
That says a lot about the potential for an initiative like yours to make a difference in the world.
Desmond Hua 31:44
Yes, that actually does show — when you try to reach out, and when you have a good cause, whether it’s in the community or in the world, I think reaching out to people who could help you is definitely a thing that — it’s like an opportunity for you to expand and to improve the initiative, or your passion.
Mitch Ratcliffe 32:05
Ethan, you’ve just graduated from high school. What’s next for you?
Ethan Hua 32:10
So, in the fall, I’ll be attending Wharton at UPenn. And I think, if there’s one thing I’d like people to know about me, it’s that I enjoy addressing unmet needs in the community with self-sustaining solutions. With HOPE, I’ve done that; and in my work at the San Mateo–Foster City School District, I built a repository of Eagle Scout projects in order to create an outlet for schools to get their service projects out to the community, and to help other scouts like us find their Eagle Scout projects. By the way, an Eagle Scout project is the final step a scout can take in their scouting journey to achieve the rank of Eagle, which is the highest rank.
Mitch Ratcliffe 32:55
Desmond, what are your plans? I mean, you’ve got a couple more years of high school, but what are you thinking about doing?
Desmond Hua 33:00
Well, first of all, for HOPE, I think my mission is to keep expanding HOPE into further areas — even though I may not be as familiar with the communities, I want to reach out to as many people and families as I’m able to help, beyond the San Mateo–Foster City School District. I guess outside of HOPE, I would also love to continue Boy Scouts as the senior patrol leader this year. The senior patrol leader is basically — it’s like a CEO; not CEO, club president — yeah, the highest rank.
Ethan Hua
I’m very proud of Desmond.
Desmond Hua
Yeah, yeah. So I think — he’s been a senior patrol leader, and I’m going to be one this year, so being in that position, leading younger scouts and showing them the right path, I think that’s going to be a really fun experience. That’s what I’m looking forward to this year, too.
Mitch Ratcliffe 33:52
So, Ethan, you’re going to business school, and based on what both of you are saying, leadership is really that instigator of the change that you want to see in the world. Is business the primary lever that you see as our opportunity for change?
Ethan Hua 34:07
Yes. In fact, I think that business is going to be the discipline that helps push the world to be more sustainable. If you think about it, all too often the careers that attack the climate crisis are very siloed — for example, politicians in their chambers, engineers in their labs, or lawmakers in their courts — but all too often these disciplines are not very interconnected and working together in unity to address these issues. And I think that business is something that — its profit is what connects all these efforts together. It’s what pushes people to attempt to create a greener world: financial incentives. Okay, let me give you an example: the solar panel industry. Families would be less incentivized to purchase a solar panel for their home if they didn’t understand that it would save them money in the long term. Because they understand that solar panels will save them money on their electricity bills, they’re like, okay, not only does it save me money, but it’s also a lot greener for the planet. So because people have that — it’s an example of the power of financial incentives to motivate people to join sustainable causes. I think that’s why that cause and effect is what interests me in pursuing business.
Mitch Ratcliffe 35:31
Do you see that as the pursuit of vast wealth, or distributed prosperity?
Ethan Hua 35:38
Distributed prosperity. I think that financial incentives are what’s going to push sustainable efforts, and that’s kind of how HOPE is founded upon, too — free uniforms for families who then don’t have to go out and spend roughly $100 a year per child, with the added benefit that it saves landfill waste.
Mitch Ratcliffe 36:02
So obviously there’s a lot of opportunity in front of you, and for HOPE. What are you thinking about growing into, and where can people find out how to donate, or to request uniforms, or maybe just make a contribution to help make this bigger?
Desmond Hua 36:18
I think just helping out HOPE in general. First of all, donating to HOPE is a really big thing. Contacting HOPE — of course, we have a multilingual website, so visiting that, we have all the info on where to donate, where to request. But I think also what we’re trying to aim for is expanding into bigger schools, where we reach out with HOPE, with our mission, to help out families that, like you said, need uniforms, so they don’t have to spend that $100 to $200 every single year.
Mitch Ratcliffe 36:57
So, Ethan, how can people track what you all are doing and get involved?
Ethan Hua 37:01
Follow our Instagram, @hopeuniformsprogram. Stay on our website; we update our statistics there. You can find out a lot more about how we started this, where we are, and why we do what we do, on our website. We provide it so that families across the community, no matter what language they speak, can understand us — understand our story, understand our passion, our mission.
Mitch Ratcliffe 37:27
Congratulations, gentlemen, to both of you, for an immense good that you have brought into the world. And I wish you both the greatest success in the future. And Ethan, enjoy Wharton.
Ethan Hua 37:38
Thank you, Mitch.
Mitch Ratcliffe 37:46
Welcome back to Sustainability in Your Ear. You’ve been listening to my conversation with Ethan and Desmond Hua. They are brothers who founded the HOPE Uniforms Program. HOPE is short for Help Our Planet Earth, and that’s a student-led nonprofit that collects gently used school uniforms and redistributes them free to families who need them. You can learn more about their work at hopeuniformsprogram.com. That’s all one word, no space, no dash — hopeuniformsprogram.com.
And if you know a teenager doing this kind of work, the Gloria Barron Prize for Young Heroes is something you should point out to them. Ethan was recognized by the program last year, and you can learn more about the Gloria Barron Prize for Young Heroes at barronprize.org. Again, all one word, no space, no dash — barronprize.org, and Barron has two R’s.
The circular economy won’t be built only in boardrooms and at pilot plants; it will also grow from the grassroots, in garages like the one we’ve heard about today. That happens when people recognize human needs and take steps to address them. Ethan and Desmond started HOPE in 2020 while they were still in middle school, after a classmate showed up in shorts on a cold day. That’s a failure of material flows, in the same sense as when a species within an ecosystem struggles because something further up or down the food chain is disrupted.
Ethan kept returning to the idea that the highest-value thing you can do with a uniform is keep it whole and keep it in use, flowing through the economy. Keep the garment in circulation, and you can avoid a variety of environmental impacts, including the water used to grow the cotton, the pesticides, the oil drilled to create the synthetic textiles, the dyes, the factory energy, and the freight emissions produced simply by transporting a uniform to the store. We’ve trained a generation to feel good about the recycling bin, but reuse sits a rung above recycling, and textiles are only the clearest case for it. Americans throw away something like 17 million tons of clothing every year, most of it still wearable.
HOPE’s answer to that isn’t a new material or a chemical process; it’s a reverse-logistics system — a community solution based on a phone number and a website — that keeps uniforms in use. And you’ll note that HOPE is building a closed loop, not a one-way consumption model. That’s an important shift. Families request uniforms through the website; the uniforms come back when kids outgrow them; and the brothers spot-check and then reissue them for another use.
Ethan and Desmond built in the return mechanism, and that’s important. It’s a blocker that many big players are running into. Think back a couple of weeks ago to my conversation with Amy Fernandez and Zach Lauer of Trex, the synthetic decking company. They struggle to recapture material because contractors don’t want to separate old Trex decking from the sprues and connectors used to make the deck in the first place. HOPE started by making returns routine and building a solution for getting the material back, and then communicating about the services in three languages, so that no family is shut out. They also refuse to treat what they’re doing as charity, focusing on raising the service experience for families, which is the basis for long-term engagement and long-term behavior change.
Ethan said his goal is distributed prosperity, and that echoes the idea shared by many of our guests, that sustainability can be a profitability lever rather than a cost center, even while creating social benefits. Ethan’s pitch is that HOPE is replicable — a model that other communities can use. As he said, anyone can do it, and the dream is HOPE in another garage, and then another. And I think Desmond’s comment that the biggest impact isn’t the uniforms diverted, it’s putting the idea in another kid’s head that they could do this too — that’s an important point. We can spread this virally. We’re building the systems for the next generation, not the last.
When I was growing up, there was a garbage can, and nothing else — no recycling bin, no curbside pickup. The recycling system that we know today, the one that we take for granted, didn’t exist even within living memory. It’s going to be built again by another generation, piece by piece, by people who start small and local and don’t wait for permission to do so. And, of course, we have to acknowledge this: the scale of challenges and adverse environmental impacts faced by this generation is daunting. But every system we now treat as permanent was once somebody’s improbable idea, run out of a garage, a church, a basement, or a classroom.
What Ethan and Desmond have proven at the scale of San Mateo County is that circular economies are waiting for people willing to do the unglamorous work of moving material back to where it’s needed. Ethan heads off to Wharton this fall with a thesis already tested in the field: the belief that business is a lever for prosperity. And that’s the important point. We’ll be watching where they take HOPE, and who copies them.
And if this conversation gave you something to think about, please share it with a young person in your life who’s sitting on a great idea. You folks are the amplifiers to spread more ideas and create less waste, and I hope you’ll take a moment to share one of the more than 550 episodes in our archive to help others get up to speed on recycling, circularity, and sustainable business. Please point your friends, family, coworkers, and the people you meet on the street to Sustainability in Your Ear on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Audible, or whatever purveyor of podcast goodness you prefer, and if you take a moment to leave a rating or review, that will go a long way toward helping others find the show.
Thanks for your support. I’m Mitch Ratcliffe. This is Sustainability in Your Ear, and we will be back with another innovator interview soon. In the meantime, folks, take care of yourself, take care of one another, and, of course, let’s all take care of this beautiful planet of ours. Have a green day.
The post Sustainability In Your Ear: Ethan and Desmond Hua Build HOPE for School Uniform Reuse appeared first on Earth911.
https://earth911.com/podcast/sustainability-in-your-ear-ethan-and-desmond-hua-build-hope-for-school-uniform-reuse/
Green Living
Guest Idea: Green Bins Are Spreading Faster Than the Habit of Using Them
Editor’s Note: This is a sponsored posting.
Curbside food scrap collection has spread fast. BioCycle’s nationwide survey counted 14.9 million U.S. households with access to food waste collection in 2023, up 49 percent from 10 million two years earlier.
Getting those bins used is the harder part. Reported participation runs from near-universal in a handful of cities to under 30 percent in others. That gap matters. Food waste is about 24 percent of what U.S. municipal landfills take in, and the EPA estimates it accounts for 58 percent of the fugitive methane those landfills release. An unused green bin isn’t a neutral outcome.
Quick definition first, since the name varies. The green bin is the curbside cart for household organics: food scraps, plus yard trimmings and food-soiled paper depending on your program. It’s collected separately from trash and recycling and sent to a composting or anaerobic digestion facility instead of a landfill. It isn’t green everywhere. Toronto runs a Green Bin program, New York City uses brown ones, and elsewhere it’s the organics cart, the compost cart, or the food scraps cart. What matters is where the material ends up, not the color.
Why People Quit the Green Bin
Households opt out for a long list of reasons: confusion about what’s accepted, forgetting collection day, plain inconvenience. I’d add one that gets less attention because it’s unglamorous. The bin gets disgusting, cleaning it turns into a recurring chore, and eventually the chore wins.
I’ll be straight that this is a hypothesis, not a documented finding. I haven’t found a study that isolates bin cleaning as a reason people quit. What I’ve got is the pattern I hear from customers constantly. But there’s evidence that making the job less unpleasant moves the numbers.
In 2023–24, Essex County Council in the UK ran a year-long Food Recycling Project. It delivered a package to more than 375,000 households: a sticker for the general waste bin, an information leaflet, and a free roll of compostable liners. Food recycling tonnage rose an average of 21 percent against a control group in the first three months after delivery, more than double the council’s 10 percent target.
The liners were one piece of that package, running alongside a media campaign, so the case study can’t tell us how much of the gain they drove on their own. What it does show is that handing people a tool to keep the mess contained belongs in the mix alongside better signage. It also shows the limit. Free liner giveaways are a subsidy most households will never get.
So the question isn’t whether a cleaner, contained bin helps people stick with the program. Plainly it does. The question is how you get there when nobody’s handing out free bags. That’s the gap BagEZ fills.
Doing More With Less
BagEZ holds a standard bag open inside the green bin, 13 gallons (49 liters) and up. Food scraps go into the bag, not against the cart. Everything stays contained, and the bin stays clean and dry. That’s aimed straight at the reason people give up: the cleaning.
It’s a folding steel rack with clips that lock the bag to the frame. The handles grip the bin’s rim and hold the bag open and suspended. On collection day you pull off the clips, seal the bag, and lift out the frame before setting the bin at the curb.
The size is up to you, and the data says most kitchens don’t need much. The MITRE-Gallup survey, the largest U.S. household food-waste study to date, surveyed nearly 10,000 households and put the average household’s food waste at 6.2 cups a week, or about 8.8 cups once you count peels, cores, and bones. That’s a bit over half a gallon. Even a household running well above average isn’t close to filling a big curbside cart with food scraps. So size the bag to your kitchen, not your bin. A 13-gallon bag is plenty for most households, it costs less than lining a full cart, and a right-sized bag is also what makes the odor tricks below work. Size up if your program takes yard trimmings too, or if collection runs every other week.
One caveat before you change anything: check what your program accepts. Liner rules vary a lot across North America. Some programs take certified compostable bags only, some want paper or newspaper, some want food scraps loose in the cart. A bag your hauler doesn’t accept can get your cart skipped and the whole load flagged for contamination. Earth911’s recycling search is a good place to start: earth911.com/recycling-search

After collection, a wipe with vinegar and water handles anything that’s built up. On a bin that’s stayed dry, that’s a seasonal job, not a weekly one, and you never have to drag out the hose.
The Green Bin Yuck Factor
Ever notice the puddle in the bottom of your countertop organics caddy after you pull the bag? That’s mostly moisture coming out of the food itself. Produce is largely water, and as it breaks down that water gets released.
The same thing happens in the curbside bin, at a bigger scale. Bags of scraps keep releasing moisture as they sit, and when a bag rests against the bottom and sides of the bin, that liquid builds up into the sticky residue that smells and makes the bin dirty.
BagEZ works differently because the bag never touches the bin. The frame holds it up and lets air move all the way around: underneath, the sides, everywhere. Condensation on the outside of the bag has nowhere to pool. It evaporates instead of collecting at the bottom, and the walls stay dry.
A right-sized bag makes the odor tricks work better, too. A sprinkle of baking soda in the small contained space around the bag does more than the same sprinkle spread thin across a big empty floor. Less smell, fewer flies. Fewer flies, no maggots.
Some people use food-grade diatomaceous earth against fly larvae. DE works by drying insects out, and it stops working the moment it gets wet, so a dry bin is a precondition for it doing anything at all. Same story as the baking soda: it only earns its keep in a dry, contained gap.
Two more that help, cheap. A few sheets of newspaper under the bag catch drips if a bag ever fails. And a cloth sachet of peppermint and cloves tied to the outside of the bin throws off raccoons and rodents, which hunt almost entirely by smell. A bin that doesn’t smell like food stops being worth their trouble.

Why It Works
The infrastructure is already there. The bins are at the curb, the trucks run, and the environmental case, going by the numbers up top, isn’t in question. What’s been missing is a cheap, fast way to keep the bin clean enough that people don’t quietly give up on it.
A reusable steel frame that holds a bag open sounds too simple to matter. That’s sort of the point. The bin stays clean, the habit stays easy, and food scraps end up where they’re meant to.
Set it next to the alternatives and the difference is in how each one works. Bin cleaning services deal with the problem after it happens, on a schedule, for a recurring fee. Full-size liners cost money every week and are sized to the bin, not to what you actually throw out. A frame is a one-time buy that works with the bag size your household already uses.

A green bin program only works if people keep using it, and people keep using what doesn’t gross them out. That’s the hinge the whole thing turns on. Take away the wet mess on the walls and most of the reasons to quit go with it: nothing pooling at the bottom, nothing to hose out, no smell pulling animals across the yard. The bin stays clean on its own, week after week, with a bag you were going to buy anyway.
Size it to your kitchen instead of your bin, clip it to the frame, and the green bin stops being the chore you avoid. Find it at bagez.com.
About the Author
This sponsored article was written by Sean Rana, the founder of BagEZ, a Canadian company behind the steel hanging bag frame that keeps garbage and green bins clean without special liners or ongoing costs, and works for waste and storage on the go.
The post Guest Idea: Green Bins Are Spreading Faster Than the Habit of Using Them appeared first on Earth911.
https://earth911.com/how-to-recycle/guest-idea-green-bins-are-spreading-faster-than-the-habit-of-using-them/
Green Living
Sustainability In Your Ear: David Fenton on How to Win the Climate Debate
Yale researchers estimate that roughly 80 million Americans are alarmed about climate change. About 40 million of them say they want to be politically active on the issue. But only about 3 million actually are. When that 37 million-American group is asked why they aren’t active, researchers most often hear that nobody has asked them. That’s the focus of this week’s conversation on Sustainability In Your Ear. Only 12% of Americans say they ever see anything about climate change on social media, and two-thirds say they rarely or never hear about it from friends or in the media. At the same time, the fossil fuel industry treats persuasion as core business. David Fenton calls the situation unilateral disarmament at a moment when an information war is needed. The crowning result of climate action to date is the Inflation Reduction Act that passed by one vote and was repealed by one vote. A bill you win by a single vote, he says, is a bill you never really won David founded Fenton Communications in 1982, the first public relations firm in America built solely for progressive causes. His campaigns helped free Nelson Mandela and end apartheid, helped ban fracking in New York, where Yoko Ono’s “Imagine There’s No Fracking” billboard went up along Governor Andrew Cuomo’s commute, and helped launch fossil fuel divestment with the heirs to the Standard Oil fortune as the messengers. His book, The Activist’s Media Handbook: Lessons from Fifty Years as a Progressive Agitator, includes a foreword by cognitive linguist George Lakoff, who we discuss at length in this thought-provoking interview.

He places the blame on climate advocacy spending and, more importantly, the words used to frame the issue. The climate NGO and philanthropic world spends billions a year on policy, law, and science, and spends on communication mainly to raise money from people already on its lists. David traces that to what Lakoff calls the Enlightenment fallacy, the belief that a strong idea reproduces itself because it is correct, and to its corollary, that selling ideas is dirty work beneath serious people. The second is vocabulary. “Net Zero means almost nothing to most people. “Carbon” sounds like an abstraction. And “justice,” in cognitive research, evokes images of the police and courts, not of fairness and a shared mission. We need to pivot to simpler language, like “pollution,” when describing the source of global warming. Pollution is a word nobody defends, and a blanket of pollution trapping heat that would otherwise escape into space is a picture people can easily grasp and act on.
Asked how to solve climate change, the most common answer Americans give is “reduce, reuse, and recycle.” Earth911 has spent three decades on that vocabulary, and it holds up on its own terms as a materials strategy. Increased curbside recycling participation rates don’t necessarily lead to decarbonizing the grid or the truck fleets. David Fenton’s prescription for listeners is blunter than any campaign plan: talk about it, post about it, and press the funders you know to spend generating public demand for change rather than direct mail fundraising. Learn more about David’s work at davidfentonactivist.com, and find his podcast at fentonforecast.com.
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Interview Transcript
Mitch Ratcliffe 0:09
Hello. Good morning. Good afternoon. Or good evening, wherever you are on this beautiful planet of ours. Welcome to Sustainability In Your Ear. This is the podcast conversation about accelerating the transition to a sustainable, carbon-neutral society, and I’m your host, Mitch Ratcliffe. Thank you for joining the conversation today. Let’s talk about how to win the fight for planet and people. We already know what to do about climate change. The clean energy solutions exist. They’re the cheapest form of power on Earth, and the warning signs, from fires and floods to the rising costs of food and insurers walking away from whole regions, are impossible to miss. And yet, after decades of effort, only about a quarter of Americans are deeply engaged with the urgency of climate action, and just half are even concerned. So here’s the puzzle that my guest today, David Fenton, has wrestled for more than 50 years. If the danger is this clear and the answers are this good, why has the movement failed to bring the public along?
Part of the answer is that we’re making the case in openly hostile territory. Federal climate policy has been rolled back. The fossil fuel industry has spent decades manufacturing doubt about global warming, and its allies are ready to blame wind and solar within hours of any grid emergency, whether or not the facts support it. The social platforms where most people get their news quietly bury anything labeled climate, showing it only to the people who already agree. And if you’re a climate-concerned person, the audiences that you most need to reach will never see those messages. As David puts it, we’re in a propaganda war with the fossil fuel industry, and we’re not even on the battlefield.
David Fenton has spent his life trying to change that. He started as a teenage high school dropout, shooting photographs of the anti-war movement and the Black Panthers for the underground press in the 1960s. He co-produced the No Nukes concert at Madison Square Garden, and in 1982 he founded Fenton Communications, the first public relations firm in America built solely for progressive causes.
Over four decades, his work has helped free Nelson Mandela and end apartheid, helped ban fracking in New York, and helped launch the fossil fuel divestment movement in partnership with the Rockefellers. In fact, the heirs to the Standard Oil fortune as the messengers for the movement. And now he’s distilled it all into a book called The Activist’s Media Handbook: Lessons from Fifty Years as a Progressive Agitator. And that includes a foreword by cognitive linguist George Lakoff. We’re going to explore how to speak to people’s hearts before their heads, and why “make polluters pay” travels farther than “net zero by 2050,” as well as how to fight disinformation when a lie outruns the truth, and how to win over conservatives without bending the facts. So, what does a lifetime of victories and hard-won failures teach us about protecting the planet and democracy itself in this pivotal moment? Let’s find out after this brief commercial break.
David Fenton, welcome to Sustainability In Your Ear. How are you doing today?
David Fenton 3:15
I’m feeling sustained. Thank you. How are you? Sustained.
Mitch Ratcliffe 3:17
Good. I’m doing well. It’s a beautiful day here in southern Oregon, and I know in Berkeley it’s probably a nice morning as well.
David Fenton 3:25
It’s a little foggy, and that’s good. We are avoiding the heat waves of the rest of the country.
Mitch Ratcliffe 3:30
Twain’s observation about San Francisco is always kind of a satisfying one when you get there, but you hear about it and you think, “Gosh, it must be cold.”
David Fenton 3:38
Yeah, well, colder is a little better right now, given what’s going on in our overheated world.
Mitch Ratcliffe 3:44
Absolutely. Hey, look, you’ve spent 50 years working on trying to change the world, to put it mildly. And in the book, you turn the lens on the movement itself, calling the climate crisis the biggest communication failure in the history of progressive advocacy. Why does so much of the fault lie on our side of the conversation?
David Fenton 4:04
Well, it’s not only on our side, but everybody talks correctly about the fault of the corporate polluting interests that have confused everybody and spread all this propaganda and intentional lying, the biggest criminals of all time, in my opinion, at least measured by impact, but our movement bears some responsibility also. You know, I mean, just look at the data. You know, only 12% of Americans say they ever see anything at all about climate change on social media, their main source of news increasingly. Only, let’s say, two thirds, according to the Yale research, say they rarely or never see or hear anything about climate change from their friends or in the media.
You know, the environmental groups do a lot of great things: policy, law, science. But they don’t communicate. They don’t spend money on communicating, by and large, even though they’re very wealthy. They have huge budgets. They don’t value that, you know. As we all know, they only go out to communicate with their members to raise money, not to educate or get people involved in action. When people say that they rarely or never see or hear anything about this, that’s a failure.
And at the same time, the fossil fuel industry is very focused on propaganda and communication. They’re building up all these online influencers. They’ve always had a natural focus on this, and we’re practicing what, in the main, I would call a unilateral disarmament in the information wars. And you know, you can’t decarbonize the economy at the speed we need to according to physics without the public being on board. You know, we saw this when Biden’s Inflation Reduction Act passed by only one vote, and when you win only by one vote, you’ve won nothing permanent. And in my opinion, it’s an indicator that you have not done enough to get the public on your side, and that’s why Trump was able to repeal most of it by one vote. So if we’re winning and losing by one vote, we’re losing.
Mitch Ratcliffe 6:22
But do you feel, because of the one vote that still separates the two sides of the country, so to speak, that there is a lot of opportunity for real permanent change still ahead?
David Fenton 6:33
Absolutely. You know, I’m very optimistic because you know the data shows we can help people understand what this is simply, in ways that speak to their concerns about their health and their children and their property and their jobs and their prosperity and their security. But we don’t, by and large. I mean, first of all, we don’t reach people hardly at all, and then when we do, our language is an obstacle. We do not speak in terms that people can understand or that speak to their values and their everyday concerns. You know, like take the term net zero. Nobody knows what the hell that means. You know, people really do not know what carbon is, sorry. And so the whole, you know, and climate justice, that’s another one. You know, as I tell people, if you want climate justice, please don’t call it that, because nobody knows what it means. And you know, if you look at the science of cognition and linguistics, when you say the word justice, what comes into people’s head is the police and the court. So you’re confusing the hell out of people.
Now, when you talk about pollution, which is the cause of this, everybody knows what you’re talking about. And the other great thing about the word pollution is that no one will ever defend it. Pollution is never good. No one ever likes it. So, you know, we know from the research that the best language and imagery to explain what we’re doing to the Earth to people is that we have put a blanket of pollution around the Earth that’s trapping heat that used to go back out to space, and everybody can see that. That activates existing mental frames. People know what pollution is. They know what a blanket looks like. They know what a blanket does. It traps heat. So all that heat energy that used to go back out to space is now making it hotter, duh. So that’s how we need to talk about this, but we don’t.
So another thing, you know, stop me from rambling on here too much, is that people learn from influencers and characters and personalities, and we don’t build hardly any up. Al Gore has, you know, long faded from predominant view. Bless him, he did a great job. But where are influencers? You know, we have them in the wings, and we have no infrastructure to create more visibility for them, and we don’t think it’s important. So you know, I’ve written about, why is this? Why does the climate community, the vast NGO and philanthropic enterprise behind it, and it is vast, it’s very, you know, it’s many billions of dollars a year, why, excuse me, why doesn’t it value communicating and getting the public on board to demand change?
So, the best answer I’ve found comes from the great Berkeley linguist George Lakoff, and he says that people who study the humanities, the sciences, and the law (I’m talking to you, Bill Gates) have what Lakoff calls the Enlightenment fallacy.
That is the idea that a great piece of science or a great policy idea is going to magically reproduce itself because of its sheer intrinsic engineering brilliance, and this is a false view. The world does not work that way, and there is a corollary view to the Enlightenment fallacy, which is that selling ideas is dirty, manipulative, and beneath us, and we don’t do that even truthfully. So contrast that, Lakoff does, with the people who go to business school. That’s who we’re up against largely, who study cognitive and marketing science, and who, in most cases, except the finance guys, have to sell products and services to advance their careers, so they have a natural tendency and inclination to engage in public persuasion to succeed, and it’s very profitable for them. You know, do marketing and public confusion and propaganda, and you can avoid regulations on your industry, or get yourself a multibillion-dollar tax cut.
Mitch Ratcliffe 11:25
Thank you. That’s a great kickoff because you covered about half the questions I wanted to talk about. But let’s go back and unpack some of that stuff.
David Fenton 11:32
Sure.
Mitch Ratcliffe 11:33
Money was where you started, with money in politics, and you closed with business people earning a profit. So money is a theme here. Is the problem partly, and I find that I am consistently put off by the number of requests for money I get daily, is the problem money in politics in the first place? Should Citizens United be repealed?
David Fenton 11:59
Absolutely, of course. You know, we’re supposed to have a democracy, which means one person, one vote. But because of our very corrupt and very partisan, sadly, Supreme Court, they’ve turned it into one dollar, one vote. That is not what the founders intended, and that’s not a democracy. That’s a kleptocracy. So yes, this is a fundamental problem, but that’s a surmountable problem. You know, if you create a mass movement.
Mitch Ratcliffe 12:34
What would it look like to show up and create that mass movement?
David Fenton 12:37
Well, we’ve seen it many times before. You know, I’m very privileged. At age 74, I’ve seen and participated in a number of mass movements fighting the odds and winning. You know, we stopped the Vietnam War. We overcame segregation in the South. We got gay marriage. We got compassionate care to HIV victims. You know, on and on and on. There have been a lot of victories. We legalized marijuana. You know, we’ve certainly vastly improved the status of women and gays, and civil rights in our country. We have a long way to go, but it’s nothing like it was.
So these were all the results of mass movements, and there will be a mass movement to save a livable Earth. That’s going to happen. The weather’s going to make it happen. The problem, of course, as you know from the physics, is that we wait too long to let it happen spontaneously instead of nurturing it. It could be too late. So I’m confident it’ll happen, but we’re not building the infrastructure and creating the demand for it to the degree that we could, and it would cost a fraction of the philanthropic and NGO spending on climate and the environment today if it was directed to that.
Mitch Ratcliffe 14:01
Well, so how do you win that business person over to the idea that there is more profit in a more sustainable, renewable energy-based economy?
David Fenton 14:09
Well, that’s happening more and more because, of course, as you know, almost all new investment in energy is going into clean energy and storage. So the market is doing that more than people know. Actually, you know, the industry, the renewable power industry, has done a very bad job of marketing. It’s kind of, you know, shell-shocked and browbeaten and keeping its head down. There is a new effort underway called Amped, amped.org, to have the industry do more sophisticated communications and to stop getting punched in the face so much.
You know, all this ridiculous stuff. Offshore wind kills whales, a meme brought to you by the people that don’t give a crap about whales. You know, or well, all the mining for solar panels and batteries, which of course is a tiny, tiny fraction of the drilling and mining for fossil fuels. I mean, these people are shameless, and they’re good at it, and we don’t counter them hardly at all.
Mitch Ratcliffe 15:21
One of the issues is sort of the preponderance of bad news, and I think back to Love Canal galvanized the environmental movement in there in the 80s.
David Fenton 15:31
Sure.
Mitch Ratcliffe 15:32
And now, you know, Altadena burns to the ground, Pacific Palisades burns to the ground, wildfires everywhere. I literally was evacuated because of a wildfire a couple of weeks ago.
David Fenton 15:42
Oh, wow, sorry.
Mitch Ratcliffe 15:43
And well, we made it. My house is here. When you mentioned Vietnam, for instance, I mean, we lost about 58,000 Americans in Vietnam. But because of pollution from oil and natural gas, about 91,000 people die every year in the United States, and an additional 15,000 because of the wildfire smoke and the particulates that people are inhaling. What do we do to focus the potential rage that would change things?
David Fenton 16:11
Yeah, well, again, only 12% of Americans see or hear anything about climate change and clean energy on social media. Two thirds say that they rarely or never see or hear anything about it in the media or from their friends. It’s not an issue people talk about, and that’s all overcomeable. We have no infrastructure, no marketing campaign, no persuasion campaign, none, zero, zilch at any scale to do something about this, so you can’t expect people to mobilize and organize when you have one side of an information war confusing them and reaching them all the time, and the other side quiet, basically, and underfunded.
And it’s especially tragic because in the digital communication age, we know exactly how to reach people. It’s not expensive, really, compared to the money we’re spending on other things. We know how to do it. We have all the data. There’s a great group called Potential Energy Coalition, run by a former branding guy, corporate branding guy. They have all the data. They know exactly what messages work with which audiences, but nobody is deploying it. So this is the problem. You know, there are other problems, of course, in the digital age. People sometimes feel that clicking on something is the same thing as activism, which it isn’t. But you know, I mean, here’s another issue.
So according to the Yale research, the Yale Center on Climate Change Communication, there are approximately 80 million Americans who are in the category of alarmed about climate change, and half of them, 40 million people, say they want to be politically active on the issue, but only 3 million of them are politically active on it. And by the way, that’s about the combined mailing list of the environmental groups asking you for money. So then, when they ask the 37 million who want to be politically active and aren’t, why aren’t you? You know what the number one answer they get is: nobody has asked me.
Mitch Ratcliffe 18:23
They’ve only asked for money.
David Fenton 18:25
The 37 million, they even haven’t asked them for that. So, in other words, you have an infrastructure failure. We are not reaching our own base, and our own base, according to Dr. Anthony Leiserowitz at Yale, is the largest potential issue public in the country, other than abortion, much bigger than the NRA and guns. But it’s not being organized. I mean, ask yourself: if you wanted to go take effective climate action today, where would you go? What website would you go to? What social media channel would you go to? Where would you go?
Mitch Ratcliffe 19:06
Yeah, I have to say that in order to act, other than going to the website where I can send a note to my representative in Congress, not a lot of places come immediately to mind because everything is so diffuse.
David Fenton 19:19
That’s right. So no one’s building up a trusted brand, a trusted organization to do that. We could, of course, we could, and you know that speaks to a whole other issue, which is, I think we’re past peak crazy wokeness in the progressive nonprofit world, but we still have a lot of it.
You know, the language problem is big, as I mentioned, but there’s also a dogmatic problem and an ideological problem. You know, if you are stressing racial and gender divisions in your communication, you’re not going to unite people against a common enemy, so not that those subjects aren’t important. Everybody’s identity is important, but we’re not going to win by appealing to subgroups. We’re going to win by assembling majorities.
Mitch Ratcliffe 20:18
We have to think of a big tent.
David Fenton 20:20
That’s right, and we need, and look, you know, we could win conservatives too. No one has a program to do that at any scale. Now, I’ve conducted experiments where I’ve bought videos on climate change into the social media feeds of conservatives, and the videos feature conservatives explaining how global warming threatens conservative values, and they’re very effective, but no one does it.
So if you’re a conservative or Republican in your filter bubble, all you ever see is that climate change is a hoax. So what do you think you’re going to believe if that’s the only information that ever reaches you? Okay, so we could disrupt that. You can buy advertising on Facebook and Instagram, and LinkedIn, and you know all these platforms. The Russians do it, but we don’t.
Mitch Ratcliffe 21:18
David, you’ve ignited a great conversation. I want to take a quick commercial break, and we’re going to be right back to continue the conversation. Stay tuned, folks.
Welcome back to Sustainability In Your Ear. Let’s get back to my conversation with author and progressive activist David Fenton, whose new book, The Activist’s Media Handbook: Lessons from Fifty Years as a Progressive Agitator, is a guide for multi-generational campaigns for a rational climate response. David, you mentioned social media and buying advertising there, but one of the problems, and not just for advertising, but just individual posts, is that when you use the word climate, it ends up being routed to the people who already care about climate. How do you communicate when the name of the problem that you’re addressing is buried?
David Fenton 22:07
Well, first of all, you can buy access to people who aren’t in that bubble. You can just pay for it, and it’s not expensive. And of course, with digital communications, you can test your messages and content to see what really works before you pay to scale it. So it’s not an excuse, you know.
And there is something else, which is, I think that we need to put more pressure on the tech platforms and companies, and by the way, also on the television networks, which are not irrelevant as people may think. You know, I mean, the TV networks are big on TikTok as sources of news, and they don’t ever, hardly ever, link extreme weather to pollution from fossil fuels. So, you know, these people can be pressured. The problem is, the only people that pressure them are the right. We don’t, because again, our community doesn’t think you need to sell ideas. We think that’s dirty and manipulative.
But by the way, you know, thanks for mentioning my book. You know, I also have a podcast now called The Fenton Forecast on all platforms, and we’re looking at the future of climate and AI and health and democracy and all these issues.
Mitch Ratcliffe 23:27
You’ve got a rule: fight falsehood immediately, and that’s because a lie will harden into a truth the more times it’s seen. But now a lie outruns the truth by a pretty wide margin, largely because the other side pays for it to do so. What’s your playbook for fighting disinformation? How’s it changed, particularly as a result of AI and the ability to amplify everything?
David Fenton 23:48
Well, it’s not only that they pay for it; they’re unified, and we’re the Tower of Babel. So you know, the Koch-funded conservative infrastructure of all their think tanks and influencers and podcasts and you know all of it. You know, they speak to the same topics and messages on a daily and weekly basis. They meet. They coordinate. They’re in lockstep, and that’s very important because the cognitive science is very clear. The way people learn is from significant amounts of repetition of simple messages. Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. Simple, simple, simple, simple, simple.
And by the way, most people in our community hate that. We hate simplifying things. We’re not rewarded for it, and we hate repeating ourselves. But that’s what works, and they understand it, so they organize their field to do that. And we’re, you know, everybody on their own doing their thing. So that’s one big problem. I mean, even in our scientific community, there’s no unity of discourse or language or imagery that would help a lot. Nobody organizes it, so, and we could pay for it also.
Now AI is a whole other thing, of course, and you know I don’t have all the answers to that, but I do think that eventually we are going to have to have laws in this country that demand that AI-generated content is labeled as such, and we also should have laws that to be on a social media platform, you have to prove you are a human, not a Russian bot. We’re going to go through a lot of hard times, and eventually we’re going to end up regulating these platforms. You know, you see the difference. Look at why are the Europeans so much more focused on appropriate levels of regulation of social media, and they have some rules about media in general. It’s because they went through fascism and the Holocaust, and they saw how unchecked demagoguery can kill millions. So they’re focused on this, and we’re still in a frontier, false idea of freedom model. And but it’s not going to last.
Mitch Ratcliffe 26:17
When you say that people on the left don’t like to repeat themselves, it really comes home for me because I hate repeating myself. And George Lakoff, who wrote the foreword to your book, in addition to being somebody you talk about, has argued that there are two kinds of minds politically, or two moral worldviews, that are based on different models of the family. One’s the strict father; the other is the nurturing parent. And Lakoff’s work on metaphor and how it informed our relationship with the world, Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things, is a brilliant, brilliant book. And his book on mathematics just blew my mind 20, 30 years ago. But I’ve never really agreed with that bicameral mind idea. How does that framework change the way you think about talking to people about climate?
David Fenton 27:03
Okay, so you left out a third category from Lakoff, which are the biconceptuals, he calls them. So Trump’s the conservative strict father. The father’s always right. White people on top. Man on top. That’s conservative morality, and the nurturing parent, that’s, you know, we kumbaya feel-good liberals. But the swing voters are the people who have both neural networks, and they either can be activated depending on the language and personalities they are exposed to.
For example, in an election campaign, so take for example James Talarico in Texas, who’s running for Senate. So he’s attracting lots of swing and independent voters and some Trump voters because he’s activating the nurturing, caring, love thy neighbor, actual Christian side of their brains. So I think that the job here is to activate and mobilize the base and win over a significant number of the biconceptuals, and then you have an enduring majority. So I think that’s how I use his framework.
You know, of course, the reason we don’t like repetition and simplicity is in academia, you’re not rewarded for that. You’re rewarded for specialization. Yeah. You know, the smaller the better. So yeah, it’s bad training. It really is.
Mitch Ratcliffe 28:41
Two of your signature wins turned on the messenger who delivered the message, not just the message. One was the Rockefellers divesting from fossil fuels, and the other was Yoko Ono put up a billboard on Governor Cuomo’s commute that said, “Imagine there’s no fracking.” And as I read about that in the book, I was thinking of McLuhan and his argument that the medium is the message, but it sounds like we’ve moved to the messenger is the message. Is that the case?
David Fenton 29:08
More, yeah, because as trust in institutions has declined, including traditional media institutions, what trust remains is in people, is in individual influencers online, including some celebrities like take Taylor Swift or people like that. So yes, whereas the media used to be the message, it’s increasingly what we call parasocial influencers, people that you trust and who you follow.
So the fossil fuel industry is building up a bunch of these people. You can see it. In fact, right now there is a torrent of horrible disinformation on climate on Elon Musk’s racist platform. It’s unbelievable. The worse the fires get, the hotter it gets, the more torrent of bullshit is on X. And a lot of it comes through, “Well, I used to be a climate activist, and I’ve seen the light. Fossil fuels are the greatest thing ever.” We have nobody like, so we have some incredible talent. Like, have you ever heard of Dr. Katharine Hayhoe?
Mitch Ratcliffe 30:25
Oh, sure. Yeah.
David Fenton 30:26
Okay. So she’s a Christian evangelical climate scientist at Texas Tech University. Her husband’s an evangelical preacher. She’s amazingly talented, and she has no help online, none. She has no video team, no social media team, no PR firm, no strategist. She does it all by herself. And because she’s so good, she has a million followers. She’d have 15 or 20 million, in my opinion, if she had help.
And here’s a comment on the philanthropic community and its prioritizing communication. Here we have this proven talent, and she can’t raise hardly any money to get a team because we don’t value this work.
Mitch Ratcliffe 31:13
What you’re describing is this talk of authenticity. That person represents the real, and I buy into it. What makes a messenger land, and how do you find the right one?
David Fenton 31:23
Well, she lands. We’ve proven it. I’ve done focus groups with her videos and online dial testing, and there are, you know, there are TV meteorologists who are really, really good at this. You know, former Governor Jay Inslee of Washington, he’s terrific at the clean energy side of this. The founder of Amped, Steve McBee, is really a terrific spokesperson. You know, Michael Mann, the climate scientist, he’s very talented. There’s a young scientist, Marcius Extavour, who’s really effective. There’s a number of them, but they have no help. Let’s get them some help.
Mitch Ratcliffe 32:04
The other issue that seems to be activating everyone, left and right, is concerns about the state of our democracy. And in fact, it ranks right up there with climate change. How do you see the fight for climate and democracy potentially merging in some way in order to make this into one struggle for a major change in the way we do things?
David Fenton 32:22
Yeah, I think that will happen. You know, we have fossil fuel industry evil billionaires, and now, unfortunately, we have Silicon Valley fascist evil billionaires, and these people are corrupting the democracy, and they’re also threatening people’s health and homes and livelihoods and prosperity and children and their lungs, so and their ability to get insurance. And you know, it’s like the Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis said in the 1940s. He said, you know, you could either have a democracy or you can have great concentrations of wealth, but you can’t have both.
So I think that this is all going to merge into a movement to have checks and balances on private power, which we’ve had before. Teddy Roosevelt broke up the monopolies and the trusts. You know, the top marginal tax rate in this country used to be functionally 70% under Eisenhower. It was 90, but functionally it was 70. That made owners of companies invest in their workers and businesses rather than give all the money to the government.
So actually, the whole ideology about taxes is backwards, so yeah, you know, there’s this tax on billionaires on the ballot in California this November. I think it’s very likely to pass, and it’s kind of sad to watch some of these billionaires. They’re so upset. It’s 1% a year for five years, guys. You know, this is half what you pay your hedge fund managers, and you pay them that even if they lose money. So it’s, you know, the wealth inequality is corrupting, and there are some good billionaires, you know, who fund a lot of great things, but this is distorted, and you can’t have a functioning democracy with this degree of disparity.
So yeah, I think it’s all going to change. I’m really confident it’s all going to change. History shows that periods of great income concentration lead to rebellion, and periods of less income concentration, just like periods of fascism and repression, never last. They lead to rebellions and it collapses. But the real problem, as you know, is we are running out of time to save a livable Earth and climate because the carbon dioxide stays up there for millennia, and this is the worry. Will this happen in time? And that’s up to us.
Mitch Ratcliffe 35:03
That’s the nail we have to figure out how to drive home. And Franklin Roosevelt, the other one, there’s an apocryphal story about him after coming to office. The Depression was underway. He brought the richest people in the world, in the country, to the White House and said, “Look, we have to do something about this, or they’re going to kill you. What is it going to take to …”
David Fenton 35:26
I want. There’s another meeting that Franklin Roosevelt had when he first took office. He brought in all these progressive and labor leaders, and they all laid out what they wanted him to do. And Roosevelt looked at them and said, “I agree with you on everything. Now go out and make me do it.” So that’s the job.
Mitch Ratcliffe 35:49
Well, okay, but what event catalyzes that moment here in the United States? Do we have to wait for the ultimate disaster?
David Fenton 35:55
You know, the disasters are happening all around us.
Mitch Ratcliffe 35:58
That’s the problem. It’s just, it’s …
David Fenton 36:02
Okay, but back to, there’s nothing on social media. There’s almost nothing in the regular media about this at all. But there’s certainly nothing simply linking the pollution from oil, coal, and gas to these weather disasters. So this is not something that people really know at a deep enough level.
You know, When you ask Americans what causes climate change, you know the number one answer you get: it’s caused by the ozone hole, which it isn’t. And when you ask them how to solve it, the number one answer you get, 40%, is reduce, reuse, and recycle, which won’t solve it. So you have climate illiteracy, which we could fix, and until we do, we won’t get action.
Mitch Ratcliffe 36:52
For someone listening right now, what is the one thing you would urge them to do?
David Fenton 36:56
Talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about it. Post about it. Get everybody to talk about it. We have an emergency that people aren’t talking about. That’s not good.
And I think that, pressure any philanthropies, philanthropists, and NGOs that you know to devote more of their resources to creating public demand. Public knowledge and public demand is what we lack. We don’t lack solutions; we lack demand.
Mitch Ratcliffe 37:30
David, this has been a fascinating conversation. How can people follow your work and tune into the podcast?
David Fenton 37:35
So The Fenton Forecast is on Spotify and Apple and YouTube and all the major platforms. The website’s fentonforecast.com. The website for my book is davidfentonactivist.com. Davidfentonactivist.com. And if anybody wants to write to me, it’s hello at fentonforecast.com. Hello at fentonforecast.com.
Mitch Ratcliffe 38:01
David, I hope you get a lot of mail. Thanks so much for your time today.
David Fenton 38:05
All right, thank you. Let’s stay in touch.
Mitch Ratcliffe 38:07
I’d love to.
David Fenton 38:07
Okay, bye.
Mitch Ratcliffe 38:14
Welcome back to Sustainability In Your Ear. You’ve been listening to my conversation with David Fenton, the founder of Fenton Communications, author of The Activist’s Media Handbook: Lessons from Fifty Years as a Progressive Agitator, and host of The Fenton Forecast. You can learn more about David’s work at davidfentonactivist.com. David Fenton Activist is all one word, no space, no dash. DavidFentonActivist.com, and you can find the podcast at fentonforecast.com, which is also all one word, no spaces, no dash. Fentonforecast.com.
So, 50 years of campaigning from No Nukes to the fight over fracking in New York, and here’s the verdict that David brings back: the climate movement is losing an information war because it showed up for the fight with ideas, not effective messaging. 12% of Americans say that they ever see anything about climate change on social media. Of the roughly 40 million Americans who say they want to be politically active on climate, only about 3 million follow through with action. And when researchers ask the other 37 million why they aren’t involved, the top answer is that nobody has asked them. Well, that’s not a public opinion problem. It’s an organizing failure based on overreliance on mailing-list-based fundraising. You’ve got to give people something to do, not just ask them for money to do something for them.
So let’s start with where the money goes. Climate philanthropy and the NGOs that it funds are very good at policy, law, and science, and they spend almost nothing on persuading the public that any of that matters. David traced that to what George Lakoff calls the Enlightenment fallacy, the belief that a strong policy argument will spread on its own just because it’s correct, in addition to the corollary that selling ideas is beneath serious people. I hear a version of this every week on the show. We are not short of solutions. We cover them constantly: heat pumps, geothermal networks, sorting technology that can pull a specific polymer out of a mixed stream. What we are short of is the 40 million voices that make any of it politically survivable. The Inflation Reduction Act passed by one vote and was gutted by one vote. And David’s read is that a bill that you win by one vote is a bill that you never really won. And so far, that’s proven to be true.
Now another point cuts closer to home for those of us who care about this. When Americans are asked how to solve climate change, the most common answer is reduce, reuse, and recycle, and bully for them. I believe that that is part of the solution. Earth911 has spent three decades on exactly that vocabulary, and I’m not going to pretend that it has succeeded. Recycling is a material strategy. It’s a big one because most of what we call consumption is really extraction, processing, and transportation, as well as the emissions embedded in the goods we buy, and they’re a bigger share of the national footprint than most people assume. But no rate of curbside recycling participation decarbonizes the grid or the fleet that delivers the products to us and takes it away, including for recycling.
David’s fix is to stop leading with the words that failed to gain cognitive traction. Net zero means almost nothing to most listeners. Carbon, which is the basis for life, is a mystery to most people. Pollution, however, is a word nobody defends, and David’s description of a blanket of pollution around the Earth that traps heat is a picture people already have in their heads. That’s worth borrowing and worth testing in conversations with your friends and family.
And finally, it’s time to look closely at the messenger economics that are involved in this new communications conflict. Trust has shifted from institutions to individuals, some of them pretty shady, and the fossil fuel side is investing in individuals. They’re hiring them, while our side leaves the best communicators to fend for themselves. David’s example of Katharine Hayhoe, the evangelical climate scientist with about a million followers who has no video team, no social team, and no strategist, is an example of that. Meanwhile, the clean energy industry, after years of taking punches over whales and mining, has launched another advocacy platform, Amped, in May of this year. Take a listen to my recent conversation with GoodPower’s Leah Qusba, who is working the same strategy from the tools end of the equation. That is, with AI-assisted tools for spotting anti-renewables messaging and responding to them.
And to David’s caution, I would add another: attention purchased is not the same as earned trust. Industry-funded persuasion carries a credibility discount, and the parasocial channel can cut both ways. The influencer who tells you that they gave up being a climate activist after seeing the light is using the exact same machinery in our minds. Money buys reach, but it doesn’t necessarily buy a message or messenger people will continue to believe. So here’s the number that I’m going to be watching for this year, and it’s not the number of gigatons of carbon or the gigawatts of energy, but whether a single large climate funder moves serious money into permanent communications infrastructures. And by the way, I am hearing rumors that there is one big one out there looking at a $300 million campaign. The 37 million wannabe climate advocates are still waiting to be asked, and they need to be equipped with messages and tools they can use to take action. So we’re going to continue to watch this story and share progress as it develops.
Hey, if this conversation gave you something to argue with, send it to somebody who will argue back and leave us a review while you’re there, folks. You’re the amplifiers that can spread more ideas to create less waste, and there are more than 560 episodes in the Sustainability In Your Ear archive to share with your friends, your family, and coworkers. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Audible, and any other purveyor of podcast goodness you prefer. Thanks for your support. We really appreciate you spreading the word.
I’m Mitch Ratcliffe. This is Sustainability In Your Ear, and we will be back with another innovator interview soon. In the meantime, folks, take care of yourself, take care of one another, and let’s all take care of this beautiful planet of ours. In fact, let’s advocate for it. Have a Green Day.
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https://earth911.com/podcast/sustainability-in-your-ear-david-fenton-on-how-to-win-the-climate-debate/
Green Living
8 Sustainable and Non-Toxic Bed Frames for a Peaceful Slumber
Unwind and sleep easy with one of these non-toxic and eco-friendly bed frames that you know was sourced consciously, both in respect to your own health and the health of our common home: Mother Earth.
What is a Non-Toxic and Eco-Friendly Bed Frame?
Just as with other eco-friendly furniture, the key elements to consider when it comes to bed frames are the materials, finishes, general production practices, and durability.
Materials
If you’re looking for a natural bed frame and want it to be non-toxic, it’s typically best to go the solid wood route if you can.
Most plywood, particleboard, or engineered wood is made with glue that contains added formaldehyde. As a Volatile Organic Compound (VOC) and probable carcinogen, formaldehyde is an environmental and health risk for yourself and the workers producing that product. While all wood naturally contains formaldehyde, pressed wood contains higher concentrations of it.
Another material to consider if you’re looking for non-toxic furniture is solid metal, due to its durability, easy maintenance, and recyclability. However, this option isn’t as eco-friendly if that metal was newly mined, rather than recycled.
Sourcing
Of course, although wood is renewable, it’s not always sustainably sourced. Look at a company’s About or Sustainability pages to see what information they can provide about how the wood they use is harvested and where it is sourced from. Look for things like:
- Local sourcing. This minimizes the product’s carbon footprint and typically means that a company has more transparency into their supply chain.
- FSC-certified. While not perfect, the Forest Stewardship Council seal is the most widely used third-party verification for sustainably-sourced wood.
- Reclaimed wood. Finding a bed frame made from repurposed materials is a fantastic option if you can find it. Not only does using reclaimed wood reduce waste, but it minimizes the need to cut down additional trees.
Finishes
Most conventional finishes used on furniture contain VOCs, which can cause a myriad of short-term and long-term health impacts. Look for non-toxic bed frames with low-VOC or even better, zero-VOC finishes.
Other Production Practices:
- Renewable energy use. Does the company use wind or solar power for its operations? Do they purchase Renewable Energy Credits?
- Waste reduction. How does the company handle material waste such as leftover wood? Do they work to minimize water use and energy use?
- Donations. Does the company give back to an environmental organization through a group like 1% for the Planet? Do they plant more trees than the number of trees cut down to produce their products?
Durability
One of the all-too-often left out elements of sustainability is durability and longevity! The longer the bed frame lasts, the longer it stays out of the landfill, and the fewer new bed frames you’ll have to consume.
How can you determine durability? Look for sturdy materials, good construction, check out the reviews for the brand’s products, and see what sort of warranty the brand offers. Some brands offer 1-year or 5-year warranties, and some even include a lifetime guarantee! The longer a brand commits to standing behind its products, the better.
If you’re planning to move around often, you may also want to consider how well the bed frame can be deconstructed and reconstructed. Fast furniture brands with poor construction — and that may use plastic in places that should be supported with metal — may not hold up after a few moves.
A Quick Note on Certifications
Certifications aren’t the full story in sustainability, but they can provide an important added layer of verification to a company’s claims.
- FSC Certified = the wood sourcing was responsibly managed (not perfect but generally recommended as a stronger standard that Sustainable Forestry Initiative)
- GOTS Certified = the fabric meets strict organic and safety standards; this applies to the textiles only (like any upholstery on a bed frame), not the wood or any foam
- GREENGUARD / GREENGUARD Gold Certified = the finished product was tested for low chemical emissions, with Gold representing the stricter tier;
- LEED Certified = verifies the environmental performance of the building or manufacturing facility itself (energy use, water efficiency, indoor air quality); this is a facility-level certification, not a claim about the product’s materials or emissions
- Carbon Neutral Certified = verifies that a company has measured its greenhouse gas emissions and offset or reduced them to net zero; this is typically a company-level claim, not a guarantee about any single product’s individual footprint
How to Find Sustainable and Natural Bed Frames
As always, shopping secondhand is a great way to source furniture sustainably and more affordably! Sites like Facebook Marketplace, local Buy Nothing groups, and Craigslist can be resources for finding cheap eco-friendly furniture — sometimes, you can even get a piece for free if you’re willing to take care of the pick-up.
I also recommend checking out EstateSales.net to find local estate sales happening near you! I have found some of my absolute favorite pieces of high-quality, preloved furniture at estate sales.
For a more curated selection of secondhand bed frames, check out AptDeco.
And if vintage furniture (usually defined by being more than 40 years old) is more your style, take a look at Chairish, EBTH, or 1st Dibs.
If you can’t find anything preloved, or you’d prefer to purchase a verified non-toxic bed frame, check out these brands below for sustainable bedroom furniture!
Note that this sustainable bed frame guide contains affiliate links, meaning we’ll earn a small commission if you choose to purchase through one of these links, which helps us continue to run this site. As always, all brands meet rigorous criteria for sustainability and are brands we love — and that we think you’ll love too!
Brands with Sustainable and Non-Toxic Bed Frames:
Our Top Overall Pick: Savvy Rest
Savvy Rest has everything you need to sleep more restfully, from organic mattresses to non-toxic bedroom furniture. The brand’s timeless all-natural platform beds — The Afton is their flagship platform bed and The Esmont is a platform bed with a customizable headboard — are made in their own Virginia workshop. Each bed is crafted out of sustainably-sourced maple and poplar wood and is available unfinished or with a zero-VOC finish.
The non-toxic furniture company also has a sustainable adjustable bed frame crafted from responsibly-sourced solid red oak, featuring a mid-century modern headboard.
Conscious Qualities: Sustainably-Sourced Wood, Zero-VOC Finishes, Local Production
Price Range: $1,049 (Twin platform bed) – $4,799 (King adjustable bed frame) | Use code CONSCIOUSSTYLE20 for 20% off
Shipping: Free White Glove delivery within continental U.S.; contact for quotes outside 48 contiguous states
Best Reclaimed Wood Bed Frame Options: Avocado
Made in their own GOTS-certified Los Angeles factory, Avocado Mattress makes eco-friendly bed frames with high environmental, health, and social standards. Each bed frame is made out of reclaimed wood or solid FSC-certified timber and zero-VOC finishes.
For the bed frames made from new wood, Avocado Mattress uses non-toxic Titebond wood glues. The Certified B-Corporation also pays living wages and offers benefits, including family healthcare, to their production factory team members.
Conscious Qualities: Reclaimed or FSC-Certified Wood, Zero-VOC Finishes, Local Production in a GOTS-Certified Factory, Greenguard-Certified (Gold), Carbon Neutral Certified
Price Range: $750 (Twin platform bed) – $7,999 (California King frame with headboard)
Shipping: Ships furniture within the contiguous U.S.
Best Variety of Eco-Friendly Beds: Medley
Using only the highest quality non-toxic materials for their sustainable furniture, Medley has natural bed frames are made from domestically-sourced FSC-certified solid wood. Each wooden bed frame is made-to-order in Los Angeles using zero-VOC glue and zero-VOC all-natural furniture polish. (Note: Medley’s bamboo furniture uses low-VOC finishes.)
If you prefer an upholstered sustainable bed, check out Medley’s Nein bed which has the option to use organic natural latex.
Conscious Qualities: Local In-House Production, FSC-Certified Wood, Natural Finishes, Made-to-Order
Price Range: $2,495 (Twin bed with headboard) – $6,595 (King bed with headboard and storage)
Shipping: Contiguous U.S. (contact Medley for quotes outside of the U.S.)
Best for Sustainable Upholstered Beds: Saatva

Saatva is a sustainable mattress company that has expanded into eco-friendly bed frames too. The company uses responsibly sourced hardwood that has been kiln-dried for maximum durability for the bed frame as well as plywood slats for additional support. (Note: I asked Saatva’s customer support team about potential toxins in the plywood, and they have told me that their beds are free of formaldehyde.)
For upholstery, Saatva offers natural linen as an option, which would be the non-toxic fabric choice!
Probably the most impressive feature of Saatva’s beds is their attention to quality and proper support. They even offer a 180-day trial to make sure you love the bed, plus a lifetime warranty — a feature you definitely won’t find at most big box furniture stores.
Conscious Qualities: Sustainably-Sourced Hardwood, Natural Upholstery Option, Lifetime Warranty
Price Range: $795 (Twin platform bed) – $3,295 (King bed with leather headboard)
Shipping: Contiguous U.S; free in-room delivery
Best Design Forward Sustainable Beds: Cisco Home @ Urban Natural

Made to order with exceptional care in Los Angeles, Cisco Home is the real deal when it comes to quality sustainable furniture, including their eco-friendly upholstered or slipcovered beds. (Choose upholstered for a more classic style or select slipcovered for easy cleaning and maintenance.) Cisco’s cozy yet elegant beds will transform your bedroom into an aesthetically pleasing sanctuary.
Cisco Home’s default furniture options don’t automatically include their best eco materials. So for the most eco-minded and non-toxic option, select “Make it Organic” on the product pages which will ensure your bed gets made with only the highest quality earth-conscious materials: FSC-certified woods, organic latex, jute, hemp, organic cotton, and wool.
Conscious Qualities: Made In California, Made-to-Order, Low-VOC Stains, FSC-Certified Wood and Natural Materials (with “Inside Green” option)
Price: $3,588 (Twin upholstered bed) – $10,979 (King organic upholstered bed)
Shipping: Ships within contiguous U.S.; white glove delivery available with fee
Best Simple Sustainable Wood Bed Frame: Birch

Organic and eco-friendly mattress company Birch also has a natural wood bed frame made from responsibly-sourced hardwood. In fact, all of the wood in the Birch Wood Frame are from FSC-certified and LEED compliant sources, to verify their commitment to responsible wood harvesting and energy use.
Specifically, this sustainable bed frame is made up of Appalachian hardwood bed rails, solid Southern Yellow Pin wood slats, and Appalachian Maple legs. This minimal solid wood bed frame is finished with all-natural water-based VOC-free finishes.
And in case you needed more reasons to love this non-toxic bed frame: it’s handmade in the USA, ships free, and comes with a 5-year warranty.
Conscious Qualities: Solid Wood, Responsibly Sourced, Zero VOC Finishes
Price: $599 (Twin) – $978 (King)
Shipping: U.S. and Canada (feel applies to HI, AK, and Canada)
Best Affordable Eco-Friendly Bed Frame: Thuma
Minimal yet functional, Thuma’s eco-friendly beds are designed with intention — they are supportive and sturdy yet simple and easy to assemble.
Each minimalist bed is made from upcycled and repurposed rubberwood trees and is shipped out efficiently in recycled cardboard. (No styrofoam here!) With an average 4.9 star rating from nearly 21,000 reviews, there’s clearly a lot to love about Thuma’s sustainable bed frames.
Conscious Qualities: GREENGUARD Certified, Repurposed Wood
Price Range: $895 (Twin bed, frame only) – $2,595 (King bed with upholstered headboard)
Shipping: Ships within U.S. and Canada (international customers can use freight forwarder)
Best Untreated Non-Toxic Bed Frame: My Green Mattress
MyGreenMattress.com has a simple sustainable bed frame made in the US from untreated domestically-sourced Poplar wood. The non-toxic bed frame does not have any wood stains, adhesives, or toxic chemicals. This slatted platform bed also eliminates the need for a box spring.
Conscious Qualities: Domestically-Sourced Wood, Non-Toxic & Untreated, Made in the US
Price: $799 (Twin without headboard) – $1,899 (King with headboard)
Shipping: Free shipping within U.S.
And that’s a wrap on our guide to sustainable and non-toxic bed frames. Thanks for reading, and for taking the time to be thoughtful about your next bedroom furniture purchase. And I hope that this guide saved you some time and research and you’re on your way to finding the right sustainably-crafted bed that suits your needs and interior aesthetic.
Complete Your Bedroom: Non-Toxic Mattresses | Eco-Friendly Pillows | Organic Bedding | Non-Toxic Nightstands
Shopping For Other Furniture? Browse These Guides:
The Best Sustainable Furniture Brands
Non-Toxic Furniture Brands For A Healthy Home
Actually Sustainable and Non-Toxic Sofas for Restful Relaxation
The post 8 Sustainable and Non-Toxic Bed Frames for a Peaceful Slumber appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.
8 Sustainable and Non-Toxic Bed Frames for a Peaceful Slumber
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