Bret Tollgaard, president of Sunrez, explores how UV-cured resins are transforming wind turbine blade repair by dramatically reducing cure times from hours to minutes. Sunrez’s technology enables repairs in extreme temperatures and high humidity, extending maintenance seasons and increasing turbine uptime. Drawing from decades of experience across aerospace and marine applications, Tollgaard demonstrates how pre-impregnated UV materials are helping operators and repair teams save thousands of dollars per repair while getting turbines back online faster.
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Joel Saxum: Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining light on wind energy’s brightest innovators. This is the progress powering tomorrow.
Allen Hall: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast Spotlight. I’m your host, Allen Hall, along with my co host, Joel Saxum. Today, we’re joined by Bret Tollgaard, president and CEO of Sunrez Corporation, a pioneering force in UV curing technology. Under Bret’s leadership, Sunrez has emerged as an industry leader.
Welcome in developing advanced UV cured resins and composites particularly for wind turbine blade repair. Based in El Cajon, California, Sunrez brings nearly four decades of expertise in UV curing technology. Today, we will explore how their cutting edge solutions are addressing some of the most pressing challenges in wind turbine maintenance.
Bret, welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast Spotlight. Thanks for having me, Allen. Appreciate it. We know there’s a lot of challenges in the repair business at the moment on using standard materials resin systems out on blades. Particularly as it gets colder in the springtime and the fall where seasons get cut short and you still have blades to repair.
Everybody always has blades to repair. So you hear about this large rush to get blades stabilized to get to the next spring. That’s a big problem for the industry right now. How much of that do you see of people just saying, I don’t know what to do, I can’t get my blades fixed before the season. It’s where SunRez comes in with UV cured materials, right?
Bret Tollgaard: Yeah, absolutely. Really one of the biggest values that we add for our customers is time. And we save time in a tremendous amount of ways. One, the time for the repair window is greatly increased because we don’t really require any heat to cure and kick off our UV curing resin. You can cure at much colder temperatures and much hotter temperatures without any impact from the ambient air.
Temperature or humidity. So you can hear materials a lot deeper into the season, so you’re no longer constrained by how cold it is outside. It’s really then, at that point, what kind of worker wants to get out, up on top of that wind tower.
Joel Saxum: I think a big thing there too, Brad, is, we’re talking about UV cured resins being able to extend seasons, but what it can do within a season, right?
So when you’re talking like a major repair that you got grinding layer, grinding layer, and all of a sudden you’re three weeks into this thing. A three week repair, if you’re able to, boom, cure fast, boom, cure fast, move to the next step, that might shorten that thing down to a week? So is that possible?
Is that much time savings?
Bret Tollgaard: Absolutely. So one of the big things that UVCure resins do is they use the light photons from either the sunshine or one of our handheld LED lamps to cure our, kick off our resin. And so what we can do is we can cure up to a quarter inch thick laminate in under five minutes.
And depending on the light intensity that you have and the surface area that you’re trying to cure you can really fast track your repairs. And so we provide pre impregnated sheets of fiber to the wind market. So you don’t have to worry about mixing any resin up tower, getting the right amount on there, vacuum bagging, heat blanket, et cetera.
We provide pre impregnated sheets that have the optimum amount of resin for mechanical properties and adhesion to the wind turbine blade. And so what that allows customers to do is to actually peel, stick, and cure a laminate piece. To go ahead and repair that surface really quickly.
Allen Hall: And I think there’s really two marketplaces I’ve seen your materials used out in the field.
One is just major structural repairs that it just gets so cumbersome to do. The UV cured makes sense. The other one is I have a blade that I has some substantial crack in it. And this is interesting cause I ran across this in Oklahoma of all places. Blade with a huge crack in it. And they had temporarily patched it to hold it together using your material just for sense of speed.
Let’s just stabilize it and move on and fix other blades and the farm will come back to this, which is really hard to do with existing resin systems.
Bret Tollgaard: Our prepregs in general are used in kind of three primary areas. Corrosion resistance, not quite as applicable to the wind market, but cosmetic and structural repairs.
And so they lend themselves really well to doing large, thick laminates. But also for smaller cosmetic things or even zippering certain cracks. So something that you might have seen where they have staged pre pregs to do some crack propagation mitigation. They’re using a variety of instances and really the technicians can get up and down tower just so quickly.
And so that’s where one of the big advantages of UV cure materials comes into place is how quickly they can get repairs done
Joel Saxum: from a commercial standpoint, Bret. There’s a lot of advantages here. So if I’m an ISP a blade repair company, I want to come to my clients and say, Hey, we’ve got a way to do this faster.
This bid, maybe a chance for an ISP to get in front in the bidding process or through an RFP. And now if I’m an operator, I’m thinking the same thing. Hey, this is going to be, it could have been a three week repair. Now a one week repair, or especially places like I’m in Canada and our blade repair season is only 12 weeks long.
And I’d like to extend it to 20 weeks or 24 weeks or something. There’s so many advantages to this. Where are you seeing the most draw? Is it the operators themselves? Is it ISPs? Is it the OEMs? Where’s this coming from?
Bret Tollgaard: So it’s a little bit of everything. So historically on the wind market, we actually partnered up with GE and LM five, six years ago, and they were the ones who really brought this material into the wind market.
They saw the value in it. And at that point in time, we actually had a styrenated resin system. So had VOCs, it was a flammable material. It was a vinyl ester based system, but they still saw the merit and being able to complete jobs extremely quick. And it wasn’t that different from some of the, epoxy issues that there were then that there were in the past since then we’ve sold a little over 50, 000 patches.
Sold tens of thousands of square meters of material into the wind market alone. And now we’ve brought out a new material actually in 2024, it’s our 7355 vinyl ester resin system. And so it’s non styrenated, no VOC, no haps, all single component. And now we’ve introduced that into the entire wind market.
And one of the things that will really help ISPs gain the confidence in the material is having some of the other OEMs come through, validate it, certify the material, and really check it off saying this works well with our epoxy or polyester blades. And so that’s been our big focus for 2024 is gaining a little bit more exposure.
Introducing people to the material. But then we also have a track record of both, cosmetic and structural repairs in this market.
Allen Hall: And I think that’s key. And your experience outside of WIND is also valuable. I know you’ve been helping a number of different applications, ship based at times, aerospace is another market you’re in.
Those are really helpful in the WIND market also, because it gives you more just world experience, world knowledge that you’re bringing to the table when you come back to help the WIND industry.
Bret Tollgaard: Yeah, absolutely. So Sunrez was actually founded in 1986. It’s focused almost exclusively on UVCure resins, putties, and prepregs.
And so on the decades of R& D that we’ve done applications installs, new builds, et cetera we’ve gained a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience on how to really best service a customer’s specific repair requirements. For the wind market, it’s not that different from, let’s say marine, for instance, where you’re, going to be repairing composite components.
So we know how to make them stick. We know how to get the right structural properties. And being able to deliver that to, in a form factor that technicians up tower can actually use is a big challenge, but something that we’ve really worked on. And think we’ve come up with a pretty good package.
Allen Hall: How does the UV resin systems work? What is the magic in there? Because you, I’ve seen them over time, especially in aerospace, and now I’m seeing your material in a lot of places. What’s the chemistry? What, what’s actually happening when it says a UV resin?
Bret Tollgaard: Oh, that’s a great question, Allen.
So traditional resins, let’s say for an epoxy, for instance, you have a part A and a part B, you mix them together, and then you have a certain amount of time before they start to gel and then ultimately harden. And oftentimes to really get full mechanical and thermal properties, you have to elevate the temperature and cure it in an oven, post cure it with a heat blanket, or even an autoclave.
UV cure is completely different with respect to the way things actually cross link. And this is coming from a mechanical engineer, not a chemist, but simply put UV curing resins have something called photo initiator in them. Photo initiators are activated a tremendous amount of different rays ways and wavelengths.
There are hundreds of different photo initiators. And so you will blend a specific resin and concentration of photo initiator or photo initiators, depending on what you’re going to be curing with. But ultimately what happens is the light photons actually kick off make the photo initiators react then with the resin and or the monomers around them to crosslink and get a solidified part.
And so you don’t have any heat doing any of the work to make the resin molecules activate. It’s literally all the light photons hitting those photo initiators and going. And so what that means is you really need to pair the photo initiator with the light source. For instance, we’ve been doing stuff in the past where we sold to surfboard repair customers who were used in a broad spectrum sunlight that works relatively well, but you now have a broad spectrum of initiators to activate.
There are different ones that are good at surface curing, some that are better at depth of curing, and the light intensity, the dwell time that’s going to be on that, all of that really makes a really big difference with respect to the type of laminate that you can UV cure.
Allen Hall: Okay, so that explains a lot, because when you actually see UV cured resin systems kick off, They look hot.
Like there, there’s still a chemical reaction that’s happening there, but the photo initiators are essentially blocking that chemical reaction until they get exposed to, to, to the specific frequency of light, and then they step out of the way and the reaction happens. That is really unique because I, one of the things especially on winter blades is that generally you’re outside, so there’s gen to be sunlight.
Do you recommend just using the sunlight to cure the resin systems, or is it better to have a specific frequency light and to really get on top of it to make sure it cures out?
Bret Tollgaard: For the wind market in general, and the type of quality that we’re all really striving for, it’s absolutely recommended to be curing with a specific device.
Whether it’s one of our handheld lamps, which is something like one of these little guys. We’re teaming up with a group to do LED blankets as well, or sheets that you can just wrap around it and it’s all there’s thousands of LED lamp LEDs on there, excuse me and so there’s a variety of different curing methods that can be done, but to guarantee that depth of cure and your adhesion to that repair surface that’s really recommended because the sun at different times of the year, But softer for amount of light, depending on the Northern Southern hemisphere is the blade in the shade, or is it tilted?
And so you really can’t control as sufficiently as you can with, an actual curing device.
Joel Saxum: Bret, when I talk to any technician that’s used this stuff in the field, or even blade repair people that like, Hey, have you used this yet? Here’s how it works. All of every one of them, either their eyes get big and they explain how awesome this, a UV cured resin was, or their eyes get big and they go, what?
What is that? And that’s amazing to me that not that many people have heard about it. The one thing I wanted to share with you is I did get that was part of the feedback from some people that have used UV resins in general. And I don’t know if they were Sun Res or what else is out there, but they were saying, to get clarification on how we use the lights.
And what light source to use and because they’re like, early days, like I tried the one person said that to me one time, I tried UV cured resins on a boat one time, and they were like, one, I was trying to set it up. I took a sheet off and the thing cured and I had to grind it out and fix it. But you guys have gone to extra steps to make sure that this thing is easy to use in the field and you’re making that process combination of working with GE and work with other operators and stuff.
What are some of the special steps that you guys do to ensure the quality in the field and ease of installation?
Bret Tollgaard: One of the things that we do is we have an extensive lab here at Sunrez. We do mechanical testing. We’ve got a, 100 kilonewton instron for mechanical tests and coupon sampling. We have a DSC here, which is very valuable to us.
The DSC will measure the degree of cure, and then also some of the thermal properties that the TG most importantly, and so what we’ve done in the past and what we continue to do every time we’ve come out with a revised formula or different fabrics, for instance, that different customers might want to use E glass, S glass, et cetera.
We will cure. in field conditions. And then you can measure the mechanical properties of that part. Then also we can throw it in the DSC to really make sure that we’re getting the full mechanical and thermal benefits of a UV curing system. So for instance, most of the time our customers, we recommend curing with our lamp from 14 inches away.
When you do that, you can cure a 20 layer UD1000 prepreg in under 10 minutes. That’s almost a half inch thick.
Joel Saxum: That’s a day long usually.
Bret Tollgaard: That’s just it. And so there is a footprint though, that led light emits enough light intensity to cure 20 layers. As you start to go farther out and farther out, there’s less light because that led light on the top loses some of that intensity and that focus, right?
And so every LED creates a signature footprint. And then we’ve done all the testing internally to say, okay, from 14 inch distance, you’re going to be able to cure, I’ll say a nice round number two square feet, or if you go to 16 inch, you can hear three square feet, et cetera. And so we can give you the footprint that it’ll cure at the depth of cure that you can expect.
And then we can do some of the adhesion properties of that as well. And so we’ve built a catalog with our LED equipment to really make sure it’s as easy for the operators to use. And for some of the cosmetic repairs, it’s two layers of biax, or you throw some combi in there. The sun will cure that in under five minutes.
And so one of our LED lamps will certainly be and if you do have a cosmetic repair, you can put that light farther away because now you have a larger footprint, less light intensity, but you don’t need all that intensity to only cure a couple layers of material. And so we try to build this structure and this guideline for customers to follow.
To make it as easy to use as possible.
Joel Saxum: So Bret, we’ve talked a lot about the limitations of the traditional or classic resins, the time, the workability, these kinds of things that can be a pain. And one of the big items there is humidity, right? So temperature is one thing it has to cure at a certain temperature, but there’s also humidity and when you’re working in like I’m in Austin, right?
Not too far from here. There’s a lot of wind farms right along the coast in Texas. And those wind farms have huge limitations because of humidity. How does the UV cured products work within that?
Bret Tollgaard: Our stuff’s been known to cure underwater. Impact on curing with humidity is not that large of a deal for the material itself.
Now, on the humidity side of things, what you really need to look after is what your substrate you’re bonding to. If you’ve got standing water on there, you’re going to be bonding to that standing water. And so you do need to make sure that you have a nice clean surface. So that to actually be able to bond to, but yeah, the humidity itself won’t impact the cross linking and the curing of our materials.
Allen Hall: And what are the costs of UV cure material compared to the non UV brethren? Is it about the same or is less expensive, more expensive?
Bret Tollgaard: It’s going to be a slightly more expensive for them, the square foot of material that they’re actually going to be purchasing based on just pure fabric and resin alone.
Once again, a lot of our stuff comes pre impregnated. We do sell liquid resins, whether it’s infusion, really low viscosity, hand laminating resin, but for the wind market, we found the pre pregs to really add the most value to the customers. And so yeah, cost per square foot is going to go up a little bit.
But when you’re peering in five minutes versus six hours and there’s no mixing to do and the technician really has to just trim out the proper size part, peel off the backing film, roll it out with a hand roller, and then peel off the UV blocky film that’s on top. They add, or they save. Hours and hours per repair.
Joel Saxum: Yeah. At the most repair materials are 10 percent of a repair. It’s all, most of the costs in repairing blades, it’s all in just labor. It’s labor. It’s time. The materials is usually pretty small. So a slight increase in cost of materials will well over make up for itself in the grand scheme of things.
Bret Tollgaard: The ROI is incredibly short when using UV cured prepregs.
Allen Hall: So what forms does the UV cured prepregs come in? Come in. I’ve seen these little patch kits that you can buy online. It’s your material. It’s in a four line package. Is that how it generally comes or is it on rolls or how do you expect this to show up on site?
For the
Bret Tollgaard: wind market in particular, having a smaller style prepreg that’s easier for one or two people to handle has shown the greatest advantage. And traditionally we’ll sell them in flat sheets that are 300 millimetres wide and about 750 millimetres long. And so those flat sheets are easy for people to go, to stack, to build, and it’s easy enough to overlap as well.
But we’ve also had some more people ask us for continuous length rolls. And so now we’ve actually been building some 10 metre long versions that are still 300 millimetres wide. And so we’re starting to get those into the field to see what feedback and stuff we have from a broader range of customers to see if that continuous length will then serve more of advantage for a trailing edge repair or something along those lines where they don’t necessarily need or have the desire to continue to stack and overlap pre breaks.
Joel Saxum: Bret, LEP product.
Bret Tollgaard: We’re certainly looking in that direction. We have a couple of things in the works that we think is going to be really big for 2025 on the LEP side of things.
Allen Hall: So how’s it gone in the field? I obviously I’ve seen some of your materials up close out in the field, but you must be having a lot of success.
If you’ve done 50, 000 of these kits, that’s a lot of kits. How is it going out there?
Bret Tollgaard: So far so good. The feedback that we get from the customers is usually pretty positive. We are certainly open to understanding packaging things and that sort of stuff to make it easier for the customers to use in the field.
But by and large, we’ve had very positive feedback. We’ve had customers install in negative 20 degree Fahrenheit weather that was supposed to be a temporary winter repair to get them through to the summer, but it’s been going now for 3 straight years without needing to be replaced. Customers like that.
And then the other side of the thing is we’ve had customers in Puerto Rico, where some weather and storms were coming through, but they were to get up and down tower. Fixed that blade, get it spinning, and didn’t have to sit there for four days waiting for the rain to actually pass them by. And so we get a lot of positive feedback from that standpoint, where it’s just the time savings to be able to get up and down tower as effectively as possible.
And so people are pretty grateful for that kind of repair opportunity.
Allen Hall: What is generally that time savings for your materials versus the standard prepreg materials?
Bret Tollgaard: Yeah. So time savings alone on, I’ve found smaller repairs, anywhere from two to six layers thick are several hours in the four to five hours per repair, because there’s no heat blanket required.
Which are anywhere from 3 to 6 plus hours, from what I’ve heard. And then also it comes pre impregnated. So everyone, all they really have to do is trim the prepregs to the appropriate size for that laminate schedule. And then the way that our prepregs come is they’re formed with a backing film, our pre impregnated fiberglass sheet.
We have a clear film over the top of that and then we have an orange UV blocking film that’s just lightly spray adhesive to that clear film. And so what that will allow customers to do is peel off the black backing film, stick it to your repair surface, take a standard three or six inch bubble buster roller to roll out any air that might have been in between the prepreg and the substrate.
If you’re building up more layers, you generally, they’re going to be slightly larger and slightly larger than the one underneath it. And so you can always have UV protection with that transparent orange UV blocking film over the top. You can build up your layers by removing the films in between. And then when you’re all said and done you peel off that orange UV blocking film.
You can leave the clear one on so you get a nice, hard, tack free surface. And you expose it, the sunlight will once again start to kick it off, but you use that LED lamp to really get in there and make sure you get the proper depth of cure. But in under five, generally under five minutes, we’ll tell people you’re eight to 10 minutes long.
For a little bit of a safety factor but you’re done curing in under 10 minutes, whereas you don’t have any extra components like a vacuum bag, a vacuum itself to pull, a heat blanket to tape and just, then wait for hours on end for that to actually go and hope that the blade is in the massive heat sink.
Tons of advantages in having a pre impregnated sheet coupled with a sub 10 minute cure.
Allen Hall: Joel, if you’re saving four or five hours per repair, how much money are you saving
Joel Saxum: Four or five hours per repair. If you’re talking just technician time. So let’s just take it as a concept of you got two technicians on ropes.
Each one of those technicians is going to be between 95 and 120 an hour. So we’re talking, so say we make some easy numbers. We’ll say 200 bucks an hour for that rope team. And that’s a cheap rope team. That’s not that’s a not, yeah. So you’re talking for five hours, thousand dollars. And that’s if everything goes perfectly, because now when you extend time, you also extend volatility and you also extend circumstances that you may not want, right?
So that’s a minimum right there. Bam. Thousand bucks. And we haven’t talked about a thousand dollars there, but let’s talk about the uptime for that turbine, because what we hear all the time, Allen from the field, uptime is the most important thing. Uptime is the most important thing. We need these turbines spinning.
So if, we’re saying, this is how much money you’re going to save on technicians. You’re also going to get five more hours of production out of that turbine.
Allen Hall: Yeah, I think about that. Someone just handed you a thousand dollars. For changing to a better material. Would you take it? Yes, all day.
I would do that all summer long that because it makes Infinite sense to do it. Yeah, I’d be glad please Bret Send me more because that’s the way that this works is as Joel pointed out You’re cutting the downtime of the turbine being off, but also you’re getting those technicians moving on to something else It’s just a huge money savings.
That’s why GE Vernova and so many others are switching to these Sun Res UV systems it’s Quite amazing. Bret, you’ve done so much already. You guys have been in business a long time. You’re based in the United States. You’re out in California. You have a long storied history.
What’s coming in 2025? What should we be watching for?
Bret Tollgaard: For the wind market in particular, the LAP side of things is definitely one of the hot button products that we’ve been working on and plan to roll out. We have a couple of different solutions. One there a pre preg solution, but then also a A more putty based option for people.
We do have a couple other kind of cool UV cure products that we are working on in the wind market that we’ll release in due time. But we’ll keep that in the back pocket for now. But really it’s just even more market penetration. We sell UV curing resins anywhere from bathtub to surfboard repair technicians.
We have some Amish folk who use it to make saddles for horses. We sell to the defense industry Marine, industrial sectors. So really we’ve been a small company for a rather long time. But we’re expecting some pretty significant growth in the next year, plus as we get some deeper market penetrations, a variety of these things where really we’re just starting to displace Other composite resin systems, mostly epoxy.
We have some filament winding customers actually who had a six to 12 hour post cure in an oven that we got down to 90 seconds. And so when you see that kind of time savings you’re opening up more mandrills, your production lines increase, you can automate the heck out of a lot of different things.
And yeah we’re ready for some more disruption.
Joel Saxum: Bret, you’ve been around the industry for a while. Multiple industries, say the industry, we’re in wind, right? You’ve been across all kinds of composites industry. What’s the craziest repair that you guys have used Sunrez UV cured repairs on?
Bret Tollgaard: Sunrez really started manufacturing prepregs during Operation Desert Storm, Desert Shield, eighties and early nineties. We had a lot of material going to the Middle East and originally it was used for doing spot repairs. On a variety of different things, but it ended up being used as a lot of armor repair.
But two really interesting repairs was an IED explosion at the bottom of a Humvee. It’s, it’s damaged, there’s holes, it needs to be filled so it can actually go and be used again. The guys in the field went up, installed our repairs underneath it, but they’re out in the middle of the desert and there’s no LED light.
So what do they do? They use the sunshine and they get a mirror and they bounce the sun off the mirror to cure to the underside of a Humvee. And so that reinstated the strength.
Joel Saxum: That’s super cool.
Bret Tollgaard: Exactly. And so that was one of the really unique things. And the other one that I heard was our materials were literally used on the leading edge of the A 10, the Warthog to help to help reinstate its ability to fly.
And so when you’re over and you’re in harm’s way. They have these BDRs, Battle Damage Repair Kits. And to really make sure that you can get back home and you reinstate the ability for the airfoil to work properly, you cover all those bullet holes, and you at least now have a plane to get back to back home.
Joel Saxum: That to me sounds like a leading edge repair. That really would work.
Allen Hall: It works on an airplane. I’m sure we can make it work on a wind blade. Bret, this is amazing. And Sunrez is doing amazing things at the minute. And we appreciate you having on the podcast. How do people get a hold of Sunrez? Now they’ve heard all this great about all the great advancements in the materials they can have for wind turbine blades.
How do they get a hold of Sunrez?
Bret Tollgaard: Easiest place to go is the website, www. Sunrez. com. S U N R E Z. We’re generating it, we’re starting a YouTube channel so we can actually make some more how to videos and ease of use things. We are same thing on LinkedIn and Instagram where we’re starting it all.
Yeah, the website’s great. Contact us through there. Phone number’s on there as well. And that would be the best way to reach us.
Allen Hall: Brad, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Great material. We’ll see it again in 2025. Thanks so much for being on. I appreciate the time. Thank you.
https://weatherguardwind.com/sunrez-blade-repair/
Renewable Energy
Pardalote Studies Australian Blade Erosion and Heat Fatigue
Pardalote Studies Australian Blade Erosion and Heat Fatigue
Rosemary Barnes, CEO and founder of Pardalote Consulting, joins to discuss their new grant-funded study of blade erosion and heat fatigue in Australia.
Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTube, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!
Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining light on wind energy’s brightest innovators. This is the progress powering tomorrow
Allen Hall 2025: Well, Rosemary, welcome back to the show.
Rosemary Barnes: Thanks, Allen. Great to be here. For, it’s been a while since we did one of these one-on-one episodes, like a, yeah, a proper, proper guest.
Allen Hall 2025: Well, this is kind of a celebratory episode because your company, Pardalote Consulting, has been awarded, uh, some funding from the Australian Capital Territory’s government for the Energy Innovation Fund.
Rosemary Barnes: It’s a really good program that the ACT government has to try and get energy innovation In the state. It’s not a state actually, it’s technically a territory. Little more than just Canberra, the city. Uh, but there are actually quite a few, like, really interesting energy-related companies here, partly ’cause of the, the fund I think helps, but also just tracing back like, [00:01:00] uh, y- you know, in the 20-teens, Australia had a really conservative government that hated renewable energy, and the ACT government had a commitment at that time to 100%, um, 100% renewable electricity for the, the government.
And that was one of the only programs that was resulting in a lot of, um, you know, clean energy projects being built, and one of the conditions that they put on that, uh, for people that would win PPAs with the ACT was that you had to have your headquarters in Canberra. So we’ve actually got quite a few, quite a few really cool, innovative companies out of here.
Um, like Neoen’s headquarters here. Windlab, uh, yeah, was, was founded here and still has a lot of people here. Pardalote obviously, and you know, a few other companies as well. So despite it being a small city of like, I don’t know, maybe it’s up to 400,000 or something people by now, um, yeah, there is actually quite a lot going on here for energy.
Allen Hall 2025: And the Energy Innovation Fund is funded by the wind and solar operators in the area, and your particular [00:02:00] effort has really global consequences. You’re focusing on two areas involving how wind turbines survive Australia, but more, uh, of relevance is to just really tough conditions which exist not just in Australia but around the world.
What two areas are you going to focus on?
Rosemary Barnes: Yeah. So the two focus areas are leading edge erosion and high temperature fatigue, which we can probably get into the definitions of those in a minute. But basically my, um– what led me to wanna have a project like this was that when I moved back to Australia in 2021, I– and I started working in O&M, uh, I noticed that the wind turbines that I would look at, the blades that I would look at here behaved really differently to the ones that I worked with overseas.
You know, es- especially with leading edge erosion, like often I would be doing a condition assessment of a, you know, a new wind farm. Um, might only have been operating for, you know, two years. That’s a pretty common time for people to get in and do a condition assessment [00:03:00] because their warranty period is about to end and they wanna, you know, make sure that everything is okay.
Um, and I would just notice that often, like 90, 100% of blades would already have bad erosion after just a couple of years, which is super-duper fast. And then there are some tools available to check, um, like what kind of erosion are you likely to experience on your site. Like is it a higher severity erosion site or a, a low severity one?
Um, and you basically, you know, the status quo globally is to just look at the annual rainfall, um, and the tip speed. And if you’ve got, you know, high for both of those, that’s a bad erosion site. And if you’ve got low for both of those, it’s a, a low erosion site. But when I plotted out the wind farms that I knew had really bad erosion problems onto, you know, a chart with those two axes, I just saw a random distribution of dots.
You know? Like, this was not– uh, this had no predictive value for Australian wind farms. And so that led me to believe that, okay, um, you know, things are a bit [00:04:00] different here. Makes sense, you know, most of the knowledge that we have about how wind turbines operate, it’s been developed and validated mostly in Northern Europe.
You know? Like it’s, it’s Denmark and the surrounding countries that had, like, the bulk of the early wind energy. First few decades of knowledge were, you know, were mostly there. Of course, there were some other, um, places that had wind turbines, but, you know, most of the The OEMs have been operating for decades, came from Denmark.
And I know when I lived in Denmark, the rain there is very different to the rain in Australia. So in Denmark, it’s basically always raining, right? Like, it’s just… Like, even if it’s not raining, you’re still gonna get wet when you go outside ’cause it’s just, like, the air has this just amazing ability to just hold onto moisture.
Um, but it’s very, very gentle. But, you know, over an entire year of most days having gentle rain, that adds up to a lot. Whereas in Australia, and especially if you go, like, north to Queensland, it rarely rains. It’s mostly just dry, and when it [00:05:00] does rain, it’s like a tap turns on, and I, I swear you will get bruised from the rain droplets hitting your skin.
You know, they just have so much energy in them. So I think that that i- you know, when you look at just the overall rainfall, you really hide something important about how erosion, um, can progress. Then, um, there’s other places in Australia that have very different characteristics. Again, they don’t have that kind of really intense rain but, you know, some of those sites are also having really bad erosion.
And so it just occurred to me, I did a lot of research, you know, into what’s going on and, you know, the academics are studying erosion a whole lot, and they’ve got, you know, a lot of standardized tests and, you know, products are developed according to these standardized tests. But the standardized tests don’t actually resemble reality, and especially they don’t resemble reality in Australia.
And so my client started asking me, “Okay, you know, the products that we have are, are terrible. We have to replace them every couple of years. It’s, um, causing big problems with also [00:06:00] the amount of energy that you’re losing.” One of the types of, um, leading-edge erosion or leading-edge problems that we have in Australia is that the, the coatings tend to peel off and make these, like, big flakes which will just massively disrupt the airflow, can cause y- you know, at least a few percent AEP loss, and maybe up to five.
And even worse than the AEP loss is the revenue loss because it affects it most at, you know, lower wind speeds. Um, you get a bigger hit than at rated wind speeds. So there’s a variety of problems going on with leading edges in Australia, which mean that I, I basically… My clients would ask, “What product should we put on to prevent having to, you know, constantly replace this?”
‘Cause it costs, like- you know, 30, $40,000 per turbine to replace the protection, not to mention, you know, one or two days of downtime. It’s expensive, and I basically, I didn’t have a good answer for them. What, what product should they put on? I don’t know. No, we, we don’t know. One, we don’t know what the [00:07:00] specific, um, characteristics are that are…
what the specific local environment, local conditions are that are accelerating leading-edge erosion, one. And two, all of the products tend to be tested around this, you know, there’s this protocol that academics have come up with, and they’ve kind of like assumed that this is representative of how things behave in the field, and it’s– I don’t think it’s particularly true anyway, but it’s especially not true in Australia.
There are a few companies that are testing to different standards. Um, definitely applaud them. But without knowing wha- what are the conditions truly like in Australia, uh, it’s really hard to advise, like, what kind of tests should you be demanding from a product you’re considering to be sure that you’re gonna put it on and not gonna be replacing it again in two years.
Allen Hall 2025: Because that’s really the trouble in Australia is when you get offered products They have been tested generally in somewhere in Europe and maybe in the United States, and then when they go to [00:08:00] Australia, it’s really unknown as to how those products will do, which is a huge risk for the Australian wind market as to what to choose, how to choose, is it– what’s real in terms of test data.
So now you’re gonna go out and do what? Are you gonna put sensors out by the wind farms? Are you gonna try to do more of a statistical summary of the actual environment around wind farms using existing data? What’s the approach here?
Rosemary Barnes: It’s all of the above, but the part that is supported by the grant is that we’re gonna have enough money to be able to buy some scientific-grade sensors and put them on, um, a sample of Australian wind farms.
So we’re gonna be looking at a lot more characteristics about the rain than simply is it raining now, you know, how many millimeters per hour. We’re also gonna be investigating, you know, every kind of characteristic of, of that, um, of that rain, um, including, yeah, like the, the energy that’s in it, for example.
A, a bunch of stuff. I won’t get into every single [00:09:00] parameter. Um, and you know, other things as well, like measuring UV, solar radiation, um, particles, because, you know, in Australia we have a lot of dirt roads, which I know is very common in wind farms around the world, but Australian dirt roa- roads are always dry and dusty, like 99% of the time, so that’s one of the things that y- you know, maybe that’s causing a difference.
Um, so basically putting sensors all over a bunch of wind turbines and then monitoring the erosion, um, a combination of some real-time monitoring and also looking at inspection, um, drone inspection images annually. We also have a- an option where we’ll just be using SCADA data and inspection images, so that’s like a lower cost version where we can combine that with the findings from the scientific-grade instrumented turbines to build up a picture of what types of conditions lead to accelerated erosion.[00:10:00]
Allen Hall 2025: So the SCADA data will, will have some information inside of it, you think, that, uh, will correlate to the weather outside?
Rosemary Barnes: It has some Additionally, we can look up, um, you know, just the weather data, like how many millimeters fell during which 15-minute interval throughout the day, what was the temperature.
SCADA will tell us also what the temperature was, um, what the speed of the turbine was, so you can calculate the tip speed, ’cause that’s an important thing. Um, yeah, so it’s, it’s two, it’s two tiers of data collection. The scientific grade sensors, as you can imagine, are, are really expensive and y- you know, the, the grant project has contributed a, a lot of funding, um, but it’s not enough to put those, yeah, put a little mini lab on top of every turbine across Australia, obviously.
So that we’re using s- doing selectively, and then we can increase the number of wind farms that are included in the study by just doing this, um, cheaper version of the SCADA [00:11:00] plus, uh, weather data that’s available.
Allen Hall 2025: So what are some of the risks on the temperature side for all the high-temperature regions of Australia that have wind turbines?
Clearly it’s generally warmer in Australia than it is in, in Scandinavia and Northern Europe. What kind of temperatures are we talking about on the ground?
Rosemary Barnes: Uh, well, temperatures here can get pretty close to 50 degrees. Um, and if you’ve ever been inside a wind turbine blade on a, even a mildly hot day, you’ll know that the temperature inside a wind turbine, and especially inside the blade, is much hotter than what it is, uh, what the ambient temperature is.
So this project is one– I’ve actually been talking about this project for, yeah, like over 10 years now. Ever since I started, I moved to Denmark, started working for a wind turbine manufacturer, I had done– I had just finished doing my PhD on composite materials, structural design, and analysis. So, um, yeah, very, very familiar with, [00:12:00] you know, how composite materials work and, in particular, the effect that temperature has on them.
I mean, like most materials, when composites get warmer, they get softer, and that is really important for a w- a wind turbine blade. You know, if it gets, um, less stiff, then you’re gonna get a lot more strain, and that is going to affect your fatigue behavior. Y- you know, fatigue is just the application of a little bit of, a small amount of strain.
It’s not gonna cause damage, but when you apply it millions, tens of millions of times, like you do in a, o- over a wind turbine’s operate, um, operating lifetime, then that builds up. And, you know, wind turbine blades are a very fatigue-driven design. Um, it’s one of the most important things to consider when you’re designing a wind turbine blade.
And so when I got to Denmark and I learned how materials are qualified and how the qualification is treated in the certification process, I just realized it’s not particularly conservative, and also that some of the assumptions that are made that [00:13:00] wo- again, they worked really well in more moderate climates where wind turbines have had most of their developmental history.
You know, it’s not such a big deal there if you test at room temperature. Your wind turbine blade is spending most of its operating lifetime at room temperature or below. It’s, it’s rarely, you know, above 30 degrees in Denmark and most of Northern Europe and, you know, also a lot of, um, a lot of America, not, not all of it But, um, in Australia it has just extended periods above that temperature and even exceeding the temperature where, you know, wind turbines have an operating limit and after that they will shut down.
But the operating limits are based on ambient temperature. It’s not based on what’s the temperature in the laminate, which is what really matters for blade lifetime. So anyway, I’ve been obsessed, like honestly obsessed about this issue for 10 years. Talked about it with anybody who would listen . But then when I started working in O&M in [00:14:00] Australia and I started seeing some wind farms with an abnormal number of cracks early…
again, early in their lifetime, you know, I think one of the wind farms I was looking at was maybe three years old or four at the time. I think it was three actually, and had a lot of cracks, and I looked at a few years in a row and it was more and more cracks every year and I’m like, “Oof, this really looks like end of life fatigue behavior.”
A- actually it’s not, y- you know, there’s this concept of a bathtub curve where, um, when you’re looking at failures in components, in, in anything, not just in, um, wind turbine blades, but you know, like you’d start– it’s called a bathtub because, you know, when it starts operating, you’ll get quite a lot of failures.
Anything big, any manufacturing defects or anything are gonna cause failures quite fast, and that kind of drops off over time as all of those, uh, get addressed. And then you have, you know, the bulk of your operating life, it’s like pretty low level, pretty, pretty constant for a long time and then as you get towards the end of the [00:15:00] life, you start to see failure rates rise up again.
That’s your fatigue failures, your end of life fatigue failures. And so when I saw the same types of cracks more and more each year, I’m like, “This looks like, you know, the foot end of the bathtub, not the head end.” And, uh, it made me worried and I’ve now seen that across a few wind farms in Australia at, um, hotter places.
There’s a few blade types that are more prone to it than others, but at this point it’s still a suspicion that that’s what’s going on. I mean, a suspicion backed by a lot of, a lot of theory and knowledge of how the certification process works. But this project now we’ve got some funding to actually go put some sensors onto wind turbines, actually learn what the temperatures are in the blades throughout the whole laminate, um, not just the, you know, on the outside surface or not just the ambient temperature, but actually, you know, develop a temperature gradient across the whole, um, the whole laminate in the blade shell.
Um, and [00:16:00] then we’re going to be doing a bunch of modeling basically to look at what is the effect of these different temperatures that blades are really seeing and how much would we expect to… that to decrease a lifetime. And then we should also be able to say, you know, if you have this issue in your wind farm, you might be able to change your operation a little bit and extend your lifetime a lot.
Because this one, it’s real– like, in contrast to leading edge erosion, leading edge erosion is just, it’s, you know, every wind turbine has it to a certain extent, and it, it’s always there, but it’s a relatively minor cost to fix it. You know, like it sounds like a lot, like 30, $40,000 per wind turbine, but, um, you know, compared to if you’ve got to replace every blade across your fleet because they’re all, you know, at the end of their life after five years, you know, that’s obviously shocking.
And, you know, that’s a bad example, but even in a y- you know, like a less extreme example, maybe [00:17:00] after 15 years you have to do a, you know, a f- a fleet-wide campaign to strengthen blades or something. It’s, you know, m- many millions of dollars for that, and so it c- could make sense to be able to learn, okay, what, what hours of operation should we be avoiding?
Additionally, because when it’s super-duper hot in Australia, usually you’ve got heaps of solar power and the electricity price is not that high. So I, I think that there– and I don’t, obviously, before we’ve done the project, I don’t know what the threshold is. But in both cases, we will be aiming to improve the knowledge of how you can operate to avoid these periods of accelerated damage.
Allen Hall 2025: Do you think you’re seeing more fatigue-like damage due to the blades operating when it’s hot or not operating when it’s hot, with maybe less airflow around the blade and maybe less cooling going on is just a temperature soak At rest? [00:18:00]
Rosemary Barnes: Yeah. It’s interesting because the temperature is higher if it’s not rotating, um, because you get a whole lot of, um, convective heat, heat transfer when the turbine is operating.
So your temperatures are not gonna get as hot when operating as when they’re standing still. However, if it’s standing still, they’re only very lightly loaded. Like, yes, they’re gonna get, um, blown by, by gusts and, um, have a little bit of bending, but it’s, it’s very, very small compared to, uh, if it is y- you know, operational loads.
Uh, assuming that you’re not in the middle of a s- a storm. But yeah, a storm probably doesn’t come with 50 degrees temperatures.
Allen Hall 2025: And what part of the blade is susceptible to these higher temperatures? Is it the resin? Is it the fiberglass or carbon fiber? Or is it the, the glue, the bond joints? What part are you focused on?
Rosemary Barnes: The resin is the main part that I’m focused on. It gl- it could be an issue for glue too, actually. I haven’t even looked into what the, um, yeah, temperature assumptions are with, with glue, with [00:19:00] bond lines. But the failures that I’m seeing in the field are not, are not bond line issues. It’s, it’s, um, a laminate problem.
Allen Hall 2025: What about balsa and foam inside of the blade? Are they affected by the temperatures or are they pretty temperature stable?
Rosemary Barnes: I don’t think they’re affected at these kinds of temperatures, no. They, they don’t really do much actually. The, the core materials, like it, it is very important that they’re, that they’re there, but their job is really to keep the fiberglass separated from its- itself to make it stiffer.
So, um, yeah, that’s, that’s unlikely to be a, a major source of problems.
Allen Hall 2025: So this study is gonna work over about three years, and you have a number of wind farms that are participating. Are you looking for more wind farms to participate in Australia?
Rosemary Barnes: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, we can, um, have as many as, as people want to join.
We’ve got quite a good selection so far. Definitely can always welcome more. A, a bit limited in how many can get the really, um, good sensor [00:20:00]package, because the grant funding is a, you know, a certain amount, and that’s paying the bulk of those sensors. So, um, those spots are limited. So if anybody wants to really zone in on what is specifically causing erosion on their site, you know, if you know that you have got leading edge protection that is not good enough and you have to replace it soon, but you don’t know what to replace it with, then, you know, that would be the kind of wind farm that might want to consider, yeah, joining this and, um, you know, getting these sensors on their, um…
We’re putting them on top of the nacelles, most of them. Um, yeah, so that would be a good match then. Um, and then, yeah, for the ones that are doing the SCADA data and, um, weather data- There’s not such a, a hard limit on how many we can have join like that. So yeah, we can have more, more like that.
Allen Hall 2025: In the temperature fatigue effort, i- is that still looking for participants or are there particular wind turbine types or manufacturers that you’re [00:21:00] looking for to participate?
Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, I think, um, I, I mean yes, we can have more of those. That’s a simpler, a, a simpler issue as well. The sensors are not so expensive and, um, it’s, yeah, it’s a, it’s a simpler project to join that one. We only need, you know, a couple of turbines per site, so it won’t be such a, uh, an involved process to get everything up on into the turbines.
And in terms of who might like to join that, I would say anybody that is in a really hot area where, you know, where they see a lot of days over 30 degrees, and if they see any days, you know, getting into the high 40s, then I would say that that’s worthwhile. Or even I have seen this issue in some milder sites, um, yeah, depending on the, on the blade type as well.
It is more common with polyester resins. They have a, a lower op- uh, maximum operating temperature than epoxy resins. But then also just anybody that has noticed just, hey, [00:22:00] we’ve got a lot of cracks, and it seems like we’re getting more and more cracks every year, which to be honest, can be hard to keep track of if you’re…
If you’ve got a full service agreement, uh, you know, an OEM managing your wind farm The early signs of this are gonna be category one and category two cracks. They’re not in exactly the same location. It’s, you know, it’s a tricky one. Normally, if you’re looking at a serial issue, then you’re going to have, uh, well, you know, your ideal pattern for a serial issue is the exact same thing happening over and over again.
And so it is harder to pull this out. It also really would be very rare for it to be happening in the first two years or three years, whatever your serial defect liability period is. So it’s quite hard. But, um, another group of wind farms that might like to consider it is if you know that in, you know, a certain number of years you have to renegotiate your service agreement or, you know, it ends and you might have to take over yourself, then this’ll be a really good way for you to [00:23:00] understand, you know, have I got a ticking time bomb here?
Um, because it’s not something that you’re gonna be aware of if you haven’t been, you know, doing some really, really in-depth shadow, shadow monitoring of your blades, you know, running your own inspections and looking at every single damage, not just category three, four, five, but lower ones. So yeah, I mean, there’s a, a wide variety of people that, that could be interested in joining.
Allen Hall 2025: Are you expecting a number of manufacturers that make leading-edge protection or involved in resin creation, some– there’s a number of resin companies and a variety of resins that are used globally, sort of interchangeably at times. Are you expecting some of those companies to participate in this effort just to learn about the Australian environment?
Rosemary Barnes: I think it would be a good opportunity to test out some products and see how they behave in the Australian context. I think that that would be a really good selling point, but I, I have to say that most of the companies doing that sort of thing that wanna enter Australia, they don’t [00:24:00] really consider…
Like, from the perspective of wind farm owners in Australia, if you can’t show us wind farms in Australia where this has worked and, you know, show us a before or after, you know, the old LEP lasted Two years and our LEP is going on four years now with no damage. It, you know, unless you’ve got a before and after like that, you can tell us however many turbines that you’ve got installed around the world, but, um, we don’t consider it validated, y- you know?
It’s not validated for Australian conditions yet. And I do have this same discussion over and over again with, you know, not just leading edge protection, but all kinds of, um, you know, manufacturers of whatever doodads that you put on to improve a, a wind turbine. It’s so different to Australia. Things break so fast.
And I’m talking everything, you know, like vortex generators fall off and, um, yeah, like, uh, you know, bits of lightning protection systems fall off, seals just [00:25:00] crumble and disintegrate. Um, and it, you know, we’re very wary of, of new products. So I, I do– I mean, I’m thinking of it more from my client’s point of view than from the product manufacturer’s point of view.
But one thing that I wanna get out of this pro- project is to be able to answer one of the most common questions that I get is, which is, what leading edge protection should I be putting on my turbine? And for now, I don’t know. I, I know a range of products that don’t work in Australia, and not much more than that.
So, um, yeah. And it’s also, you know, Australia’s a very varied place with lots of different kinds of climate too. So it’s not gonna be like, you know, the product that works in Queensland is the same one that’s gonna work in Tasmania, which is the same one that’s gonna work in Western Australia. You know, um, so it, this project is gonna really pull out what are the site specific issues you’ve got at your site and what kinds of, um, you know, tests would we need to see a product um, perform in order to know that this [00:26:00] is gonna last on your site.
Allen Hall 2025: W- what is the outcome of this project or these two projects? Are they gonna be reports or, uh, a, a continual monitoring system that’s designed for the Australian environment? How do you see this going?
Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, so one part of it is, um, developing a way to identify periods of accelerated damage and to know not to operate during that time.
So we call it protective operation. Uh, so that would, uh, help you if, yeah, you’re trying to extend the life of something or increase the amount of time before you have to repair, then y- you know, that would be useful to have that knowledge. And it will be as simple as just an alert saying, “Hey, accelerated damage conditions.
Consider, you know, if you wanna keep on operating.” And, you know, if the price of electricity is super high at that time, they may want to push through, and if it’s low, they probably won’t want to. So that’s one thing. Um, especially, you know, as wind turbines get to their, near the end of their life. I’ve got some clients whose wind farms only have, you know, [00:27:00] maybe five years operation left.
They just simply don’t wanna repair their leading edge protection again. They just, they, they don’t wanna do that. So they would be happy to, you know, reduce operation a bit and have their turbine limp through to the end of the period. Y- you know, you want everything to wear out at once. You don’t want brand-new leading edge protection on a turbine that’s going to come down in a couple of years.
Um, so, you know, that’s, that’s one part of it. And then the other thing is, you know, turbines earlier in their lifetime, how can we optimize the maintenance schedule with leading edge erosion? Um, so, you know, like it’s a lot cheaper to, uh, replace the LEP if you get– catch it early, but then you don’t wanna be catching it too early and replacing it, you know, constantly when you, you don’t need to.
So, um, yeah, it, this, having this knowledge will enable a site-by-site operations and maintenance strategy with respect to leading edge protection. We also have some sites who are having trouble. They’ve got a full service agreement, and the OEM is [00:28:00] responsible for, um, doing the leading edge erosion repairs and protection replacement, but the owner is on the hook for paying for it.
At the other end, we’ve got people with full service agreements where technically the, um, manufacturer is supposed to be doing the leading edge protection and paying for it, but they argue about what, when does it need to be done. Because, you know, um, the operator might think if there’s no structural risk, then we don’t need to be replacing it.
And in the meantime, you’ve got turbines spinning around for years and years and years with, you know, these huge flakes of leading edge protection s- you know, causing the flow at the tip of the turbine to, to detach and to stall, and horrible aerodynamics, huge losses in power generation and revenue. And they’re having a big fight about, you know, is this necessary to do or not?
And then, you know, they’re just gonna put the exact same product on again ’cause the [00:29:00] OEMs are re- all really, really wedded to their own particular brand. It’s like, “Well, last time we had this product and it was factory applied, it lasted one year before it s- it was worse than, you know, if it wasn’t there at all.
Uh, we don’t really want you to put that one on again.” And so, you know, having the information that they need to be able to, you know, really bring data to these discussions and, you know, makes a, yeah, data not drama. That’s a, a good approach I think, um, for any kind of negotiation and especially in the case of leading edge erosion.
And then for the high temperature fatigue part of the problem, aside from, you know, just wanting to know are your blades aging, should you be looking at remediation action or changing the operation, the other really big key thing is, uh, you might need to have a fight with y- your OEM about if this turbine has been designed and operated correctly.
And so then having the data from this, um, project is going to give you the information that you need to come into that [00:30:00] argument with, again, the data not the drama. Um, and to, you know, in- increase your chances of succeeding in that kind of really tricky negotiation.
Allen Hall 2025: So if you’re an OEM or a manufacturer of equipment, an ISP, an operator, pretty much all aspects of wind operations, you probably ought to be getting a hold of Pardalote Consulting and Rosemary to talk about the opportunity to participate in this study.
How do people get ahold of you to, to do that?
Rosemary Barnes: People can go to our website, pardaloteconsulting.com, and get in touch via the contact form there, or you can, uh, look me up on LinkedIn, Rosemary Barnes. That’s probably the easiest, fastest way to get ahold of me personally.
Allen Hall 2025: Well, Rosemary, congratulations on the Energy Innovation Fund Awards and the new three-year effort.
If you are interested in participating with Pardalote Consulting and working with Rosemary and her team [00:31:00] in Australia, reach out to her on LinkedIn and get that process started, because this report and the data from all this analysis that’ll happen over the next couple of years will be important to the wind industry.
So you need to spend some time and get ahold of Rosemary and get this process started now. So Rosemary, congratulations. Uh, thanks for being back on the podcast, and looking forward to, uh, the next couple of years. It sh- should be exciting.
Rosemary Barnes: Thanks so much, Allen.
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