Weather Guard Lightning Tech
Pearce Renewables Training Center: Expert Wind Instruction
Allen Hall and co-host Joel Saxum discuss Pearce Renewables’ new state-of-the-art training facility in Dallas, Texas with John Hornbeck and Travis Dees. Pearce is addressing the growing demand for skilled wind turbine technicians through innovative hands-on training methods, including the use of real equipment and cross-training opportunities across renewable energy sectors. Learn more at https://www.pearce-renewables.com/training/.
Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes’ YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!
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Allen Hall: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast. I’m your host, Allen Hall, along with my co host, Joel Saxum. The wind energy sector is booming, and the Bureau of Labor Statistics predicts wind turbine service technicians will be the fastest growing job this decade. But with great growth comes a need for skilled workers, and training enough qualified technicians is vital to keep wind farm projects up and running.
Pearce Renewables has been a leader in technician training, and they recently opened a new training facility in Dallas, Texas. And if you’re not familiar with Pearce Renewables, and boy, you’re missing out. They are the largest ISP in the U. S., and they have a great need for well trained technicians. Our guests are John Hornbeck, Manager of Learning Organizational Development, and Travis Dees, Senior Vice President of Operational Support.
John and Travis, welcome to the show.
Travis Dees: Thank you, Al. Happy to be here.
Allen Hall: Joel and I visited your brand new, fancy training facility in Dallas, Texas. Man, is that thing impressive.
Joel Saxum: Yeah, we were there while you guys were still building things, right? You had people climbing around, you were installing TVs and stuff.
And at that time it was impressive. We walked in, we’re like, wow, look at this place. Look at the size of it. The, I think that to be honest with you, the layout of the training rooms and everything. There’s a lot of things going on there. You’ve got capabilities to run people through a lot of different training mechanisms as well.
Travis Dees: Yeah, when we started the design in the facility, it was trying to build for the future, not for what our needs were today, right? As you said before, we’re growing very quickly and the need for technicians is definitely upon all of us, but us specifically. Making sure they’re trained and equipped properly before they go out in the field is our goal.
We’re trying to build a facility, not just in Texas, but other places as well. Starting in Texas and growing our California facility where the technicians actually want to come. They come there to get their training, but we want them to want to come back. I want them to go to the field, get some hours under their belt, and be like, hey, when do I get to go back to Dallas and hang out at that place?
That place was cool, the trainers are great, they’re really informative. We’re trying to set out, for an awesome vibe. We want it to be. something that our people are proud of. Therefore they take that with them in the field and they, it rubs off on our other technicians and it’s building our culture.
You know what I mean? Like it’s the, we have one opportunity to shine for our employees and this was our opportunity. So we took it and working with, incense and other companies to get all of the equipment inside of the facility was amazing. They designed an awesome jungle gym when I call it, man, that thing is awesome.
And John and the work that he did getting our wind turbine and everything put together and the time frame and the layout works, the flow is really cool. I think it really helps the technicians, keep and retain all the information that we’re feeding them versus them losing it, and what you guys didn’t see is We have a section in there now where all the technicians that come through can autograph a wall which has been fun because some people like to draw some pictures and box letter their names And there’s some really cool signatures and at the same time We wanted our trainers to have a place.
They wanted a training, you know Don’t get me wrong. It’s dallas. It’s hot. Like it was hot there yesterday and those guys were all over that tower. But And we put some big fans in there. It’ll cool it down. And, I keep saying, Hey, it can’t be air conditioned because then they’re going to get they won’t be working in their elements.
The wind turbines, they’re out in all of the elements. So when it’s cold, it should be a little chilly and when it’s hot, it should be warm. So you don’t want to spoil them. No, absolutely not. They, I think they’re already spoiled as it is, but but no, I think the team and John specifically and his team have done a great job with making sure that we had the right equipment, to give our technicians and, even some of our clients they’re people, the best training we could possibly offer up and we’ll continue to grow and improve.
I think there’s always opportunity for improvement, but we’re really excited about the Dallas facility. Everyone that comes in there, we bring a bunch of clients in and yeah. Wow. That jungle gym is, it is a wow factor.
Joel Saxum: So Allen and I came to the facility back in April and you and John welcomed us in and John was giving us a tour of basically the, you have a bunch of classrooms.
Of course, there’s some, of course you have a, then it’s a little bit of a Pearce facility, right? So you’re going to have some meetings or something. You’ve got really nice conference rooms and stuff in there, but training rooms that were air conditioned and nice for certain things. But then when we walked out into the The big facility, right?
The big warehouse type facility. The first thing I saw on the corner was a legitimate nacelle. Sitting there ready to and John was like, we’ll get to that in a little bit. We’ll take a peek at that thing. Let me show you some other stuff. And also, there’s a freaking nacelle in here. That’s amazing, right?
We’ve been to a lot of places. Training facilities and such. And you don’t see that very often for one, right? They’re tough to get ahold of. Nobody wants to that’s expensive. It’s a piece of kit, right? That could be used in something else. So people don’t really want to get it, get you get rid of it.
But the guys are really going to have the capabilities of doing some hands on training. John, you want to walk us through some of the other things that are out in that warehouse?
John Hornbeck: We’re training our employees to be the best they can so that our ISP can keep growing. But the way when we first landed the building, even when it came to the jungle gym, we contracted, worked with ENSA to sell some materials.
But they were open as a company and they said, Hey here’s what some other designs look like. I visited a couple of facilities. I looked at some of other training centers designs. So the team and the trainers and I, we sat down and we drew up, Hey what makes ours different? And we came up with a big U shape.
And that was a little bit too big for what we needed at the time, which was fine, so we cut it down, but just the way that we put thought into it of, hey, here’s all the ladders going up underneath. The deck that, that simulate coming up into a wind turbine main shaft and how we shaped the advanced rescue training section and put things on the second level made it different than everybody else’s and it made it cooler and it looks amazing, and then with you pointing out the wind turbine, that was the other thing, not everybody has a fully, can be powered up or in the middle of powering it up right now, getting it wired to, to put power to it.
at a low voltage so that we can do training and and teach everybody how to work on it without actual high voltage in front of the cabinets. But there’s only a couple of facilities out there that will have that ability to train on a live wind turbine inside their shop. Not just the wind turbine that’s in there that sets us apart as we’re gonna be able to do live power loop training on that.
So we have the same thing. For the solar and the battery storage in the divisions we have partnered with some folks and given us battery storage cabinets and inverters that and helping us power those up so that we can do live training. Not only for customers, but to highlight that to potential clients and things that other partners that we work with.
Allen Hall: So at Pearce Renewables, when you train somebody up, they’re training on real live active equipment. It’s not a simulation. It’s just not a box on a bench. You’re actually using real equipment, especially like battery storage, which is really interesting too because there’s not a lot of training facilities doing that at the moment.
That is a unique piece, I think, because the worst time for a technician is those first week or two or six months where they’re, everything is just new. You’re trying to, to de-risk that in a sense, by giving them access to real working equipment.
John Hornbeck: E Exactly. And that’s what I said that earlier, we wanted to.
Do the things that set us apart from just your, I’ll call it the cookie cutter trainings. There’s plenty of great training facilities out there and there’s, they all do a great job, but there’s a cookie cutter method there. You come in, do the standard training and go out to the field. We wanted to change that.
And add that additional, real live training for our technicians so that, they leave not only knowing how to work safer, but they’re actually getting out there and working smarter right out the gate. So then our customers benefit from that because we’re delivering employees that have been trained on most of the things that they would end up doing in the field for their first few weeks.
Now, there still is field training and very specific. Equipment training that, that not anybody can offer because you might need 15 or 20 different kinds of, cabinets in your shop to train on. But when we offer up that live aspect of training, it’s just that, that one more step, towards getting your cut your technicians out there and just having them hit the ground and work safe and do a great job.
Joel Saxum: Yeah, and you mentioned the components, but you also touched on like a grease nipple. Another thing you showed us, John, was the slew of tools from all kinds of different manufacturers. You guys have there, right? So it’s, they’re not going to be, it’s not gonna be the first time they pick up, a torque tool or something like that.
They’ve handled it. They know the ins and outs of it. They probably already used it, let alone handle it. But they’ve used it on those test facilities that you have. And I know that you were saying, Hey, I’ve got this, we’ve got this set up. But I’ve got these tools coming in and these tools coming in and those tools coming in.
So you, I know you had a lot on the plate there as well.
John Hornbeck: We talked a lot about electrical, but yeah, one of the other things that set this apart too, is you saw all those bolting stands. We built those out of bearings and flanges that are completely simulated to, putting up towers and bolting on hub bearings and putting blades together.
But not only that, it’s exactly the same as getting that live training. We can go into the turbine and we do this. We’re working on the G. W. O. bolting standard, which is pretty new to the industry going across all the training centers. We can, we go into the wind turbine, put the hydraulic or electric, large powered torque tools on the actual main shaft in the pillow block and pedestal blocks.
And so those are common things that the technicians are going to have to check in the field. So they literally are going to walk in there, go into the turbine. Put the tools on these actual bolts and, get a feel for, Hey, I got to watch where I’m stepping, and I’ve got to carry this tool and, get things in place and not leave my cords out where I’m going to trip.
So we’re really proud of the, the bolting and torque class that we’re able to teach there.
Allen Hall: I think one of the issues for new people to enter into the industry, become wind turbine technicians. Is I think there’s a thought, at least I’ve talked to people who have done this, they thought that they needed to have a lot of mechanical experience before they apply it.
Like they needed to be a NASCAR mechanic or they needed to be working for a utility before they decided to apply. Like they thought they had to bring all this expertise to the job. That’s really not true because of all the work companies like Pearce is doing right now, right? You guys are training up people that have general basic.
Mechanical skills to then go off and serviced wind turbines. And I think they miss that point. This is a little bit different than showing up at an auto mechanics place. You’re going to get trained up in wind. You’re going to get trained up in solar. You’re going to get trained up in, in battery storage before you go out to the field.
And that just, I think if a lot of new people to the industry knew that. They’d be much more likely to apply because we’re like, we need like roughly a hundred thousand more technicians over the next couple of years. That’s a crazy number.
Travis Dees: Now, anybody that has a mechanical, electrical or just the want to have a career, call us up, man, call us, we’ll help you get there.
We will get you the training you need. To be safe out in the field and you’re really going to gain the knowledge with time in the field Working with individuals that have that experience, but we’ll make sure before you get out there On your first day, you’re not going to just run away. You’re going to be safe You’re going to know what you’re looking at.
You’re not going to be afraid to get dirty you’re going to have that knowledge with you. So that’s really our goal
John Hornbeck: I would say to say you can go people right out of high school They might have only worked on their bikes when they were young You But we’re going to provide what they need to go work in the field.
So they don’t necessarily need to have any, background. You can be, fresh and looking to go into a different industry because you were an IT person. They’re pretty valuable nowadays, but. It doesn’t matter. We give the training that people need to join our industry.
Joel Saxum: So you have this fantastic training facility that can do solar, battery storage, wind, all the above. We know that there’s some of these industries, like wind, that have this shoulder season, right? Where you’re busy spring, summer, early fall, and then winter comes and you’re, you might not have that much to do.
So if you have the capability of, Training your in house technicians to be able to take on extra tasks in their downtime. That’s a wicked strategic advantage as an ISP.
Travis Dees: Yeah. So that’s one of the things that we focused on and we’re talking about now is how do we’ve done it in the past and we are a smaller company, is you could take a wind technician and go put him in the field, helping solar, but you can’t take a solar tech and put them in a wind turbine because they got to have the ability to climb safely and understand all the safety equipment.
Now with the GWO standard, it takes us time to get them trained up, but we’re looking at abilities to where the technicians that want to transition between wind and solar is to give them that opportunity and bring them in for the additional trainings. We’re also a telecom company. So we are we’re working with those guys as well.
And we like, there’s not just wind towers. There’s also telecom towers, EV as well. That’s another sector we’re big in. We’re a lot, if not the largest EV service provider. In the market today, and we are actually working diligently with another client of ours and we’re gonna be installing several ev charging stations outside the facility that will actually, the public will be able to use.
But our technicians that come in to get trained, they’re gonna go out there and get hands on. actual operating EV stations. So we do offer and continue to push and to grow the ability to cross train all our individuals.
Joel Saxum: Yeah. So guys, we’ve we’ve talked to a lot of training centers. We talk with a lot of people that are involved in the veterans communities on the, in wind or outside of wind.
But what we hear from them is man, when we get vets in, they’re fantastic. They’re ready to work. They’re used to tough conditions. They’re used to traveling. And most of them come with some technical aptitude straight out of whatever branch they were in. So they end up being rock stars on these renewable energy crews out in the field, whether it’s solar storage, wind, it doesn’t really matter.
How are you guys engaging with that community to help boost up peers?
Travis Dees: We have a recruiter. His name is Frank Martinez. He’s an actual veteran himself. His one job as a recruiter is fully to go find veterans that are either already retired or getting ready to retire and getting them into Pearce.
Like we are dedicated to working with the military. Frank’s an outstanding recruiter. It’s awesome. And I believe To what everybody else is saying, I’m gonna jump on the bandwagon, man. These guys coming out of the military, they understand what it is to be organized, they understand the importance of being part of a team, showing up on time and delivering, like they’re amazing.
And we do up here, we have dedicated an individual, his only job is really to recruit vets that were part of all types of other organizations. That, that are specialized in recruiting veterans straight out of the military, or even those that have been retired that are finally like, Oh, all right, I gotta go find something to do now.
So we’re pinpointing it. We’re finding it. And our COO was given a, an award this year from the veterans for our continued participation in recruiting vets. So that was a pretty cool moment for for our new COO this year.
Allen Hall: Travis, I’m new to the wind industry or an experienced technician.
How do I connect with Pearce Renewables to get enrolled in some of these things and get up and get out in the field?
Travis Dees: Yeah, I think the easiest way to find us is on social media. Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, like we’re everywhere. Obviously our website at PearceRenewables. com or PearceServices. com. Either one of them, I’ll take you to the home page.
Allen Hall: So Travis and John, thank you so much for being on the program. The Pearce Renewables training facility is amazing and we will definitely have to come back out and visit it again.
https://weatherguardwind.com/pearce-renewables-dallas-training-center/
I present the chart at left, though I do so without any belief that it will change anyone’s thinking.
As dozens of the world’s great thinkers have said over the centuries, Don’t expect that reason will have any effect on people who beliefs were formed without reason in the first place.
Is what we see at left actually true?
Possibly, but no one with the IQ of a turnip believes a word that comes out of these people’s mouths.
Weather Guard Lightning Tech
WindQuest Advisors on Repowering and Rising O&M Costs
Dan Fesenmeyer, Managing Partner at WindQuest Advisors, joins to discuss the repowering rush and the FAA permitting stall, rising O&M costs on larger turbines, tariff pass-throughs, and AI data center demand.
Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly newsletter on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on YouTube, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!
Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining light on wind energy’s brightest innovators. This is the progress powering tomorrow
Allen Hall: Dan, welcome back to the podcast.
Dan Fesenmeyer: It’s great to be here. Great to see you again.
Allen Hall: There is so much happening in your particular area. Your name pops up quite a bit within Weather Guard because, uh, we’re dealing with a lot of operators and- A number of times we’ll ask them, “Have you read your turbine supply agreement?”
“No.” “Have you read your full service agreement?” “No.” “Well, maybe you should do that.” And then we say, “Have you talked to Dan? You should call Dan, ’cause he can help you understand what you have signed.” Mm-hmm. “Oh, that’s probably a good idea.” So now that you’re here, WindQuest Advisors, of course, obviously is your company.
Mm-hmm. And you’re talking to a number of operators. The, the big hurdle at the minute, the nearest short-term hurdle, is repowering. There’s just a lot of [00:01:00] repowering efforts going on- Mm-hmm … trying to get turbines in, start a project. There’s a July 4th deadline and an end of the year deadline. There’s a couple deadlines after that.
What are you seeing right now from operators i- in terms of repowering? What’s the effort happening?
Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, there was a ton of effort to start physical work. That window’s obviously closing-
Allen Hall: Yes …
Dan Fesenmeyer: very quickly, but it’s still open. Uh, and then once you’re past that window, my understanding is if you get your repower completed by the end of ’27, you didn’t really need to have started physical work.
But I think most folks, start physical work is kind of the insurance piece of it-
Allen Hall: Sure …
Dan Fesenmeyer: if things take longer. Uh, another thing that’s popped up is obviously FAA and other permitting.
Allen Hall: On the permitting side, from the federal’s, uh, standpoint, is that stopped? Or, or are projects able to continue putting turbines in the ground, or what’s the status?
Dan Fesenmeyer: My- From what I’ve seen, I think on the opening session here at [00:02:00] ACP, it was said, they said that there’s, like, 130 projects that are-
Allen Hall: At least …
Dan Fesenmeyer: caught. Yes. And I’m, I’m involved with some of them, and I have a fairly small shop, and there’s just no FAA variances or permits or- They’re not issuing- … mitigation studies.
Everything seems to have stopped.
Allen Hall: So they’re not even reviewing the documentation that’s been submitted by the operators at all?
Dan Fesenmeyer: That’s what it seems, yes. Yeah.
Allen Hall: Is that legal? Uh, uh, usually those federal requirements have a timeline which they’re able to review those permits and get them approved or disapproved them.
You’re s- Right … I think what I’m hearing is, what you’re saying is they’re not even looking at them.
Dan Fesenmeyer: That’s correct. That’s what I’ve heard and seen.
Allen Hall: Okay.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. Yeah.
Allen Hall: So what is an operator to do then? How does this, how do they meet some of these deadlines if they can’t get the permit?
Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, I mean, it stalled a lot of projects ’cause of the associated risk with it.
Although I’ve seen some, uh, you know, some repower folks think, “Well, you know, I’m just repair- repowering like for like, or I’m not changing much.” [00:03:00] But if your, if your rotor’s changing or pad location’s changing, you need to update those permits.
Allen Hall: So the, the groups and the operators that are repowering the existing turbines are putting basically the same turbine in the same hole.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Well,
Allen Hall: I- Would that be okay?
Dan Fesenmeyer: I would say originally- The initial push on repower was kind of your larger rotors- Sure … new drivetrain, et cetera. Yes. The market seemed to shift more towards, “Hey, let’s do smaller upgrades, component exchanges.”
Allen Hall: Okay.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Getting more towards the minimal investment, so to speak.
Allen Hall: The 80% investment portion.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Yes.
Allen Hall: Right.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. And less about, you know, a big new machine head, for example.
Allen Hall: Well, if that gets you through and gets you the, the, uh, tax credit started back up again, which is the whole point- Right … there would be a reason to do that.
Dan Fesenmeyer: That’s right.
Allen Hall: Is there a marketplace then for those components if you’re gonna repower a GE 1.5 machine, which there’s a lot of them- Mm-hmm
in the United States? Are you seeing a big emphasis to go get a new gearbox, [00:04:00] to upgrade the blades- Yeah, and, and- … kind of
Dan Fesenmeyer: thing? Or just do maybe a drivetrain and s- Okay … and leave the rotor or, or-
Allen Hall: So do a gearbox and-
Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. Gear or just full drivetrain- Or generator … or yeah, s- things like that. And, um- Wow
people are comfortable doing it, and then it’s e- it’s easier, obviously.
Allen Hall: Sure. It’s faster.
Dan Fesenmeyer: And faster, and you don’t necessarily have to touch permits or, yeah.
Allen Hall: And is part of that repowering, I know one of the questions- Mm-hmm … that’s been bandied about quite a bit is, do I have to buy a, a new generator or a new gearbox, or is a refurbished gearbox enough to check the box in terms of upgrading or putting 80% of the value back into the turbine to qualify for those tax credits?
Dan Fesenmeyer: I’m not a tax expert, but I’ve seen people do both.
Allen Hall: Okay. Well, that’ll tell you.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. Yeah.
Allen Hall: They’ve obviously talked to- Right … tax advisors about that.
Dan Fesenmeyer: It’s, it’s their level of risk and whether they have outside tax money or whether- … they’re kind of balance sheet or taking it themselves. It’s, it’s- Yeah … more of a risk profile that [00:05:00] everybody’s different on.
Allen Hall: Okay. So that has changed the landscape quite a bit. So now it’s, once this window of opportunity passes by, we’re into brave new world. Mm-hmm. And operating turbines now not really 10 years, operating till end of life, which could be 20, 25 years. Have operators started thinking about that and starting to address some of the, the, especially the contracts around that?
Are they starting to rethink contracts? Are they starting to approach full service agreements differently? Is, is the marketplace changing in the US?
Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah, I think so. I mean, it, it, depending what you have and what you’re doing, whether you have an existing agreement or you need a new one, and whether it’s a renewal or if you’re doing, let’s say, a drivetrain or new machine head, then there’s usually a service contract that’s going to come with it- Sure
’cause it’s essentially a new machine. Largely a new machine. Largely,
Allen Hall: yeah.
Dan Fesenmeyer: But in the case of a gearbox, right, you’re probably out of your longterm O&M agreement anyway, and, uh, whether you’re… And you probably [00:06:00] have, you don’t have the unplanned coverage anymore. Right. So it’s really, you’re on, you’re kind of on your own risk.
Allen Hall: Okay, so that’s the repower scenario. Mm-hmm. What’s happening new turbine-wise? It seems like the, a lot of the operators are choosing six megawatt, seven megawatt, eight megawatt machines tends to be the, the, the band of opportunity for a lot of operators. What are they working on right now in terms of, uh, TSAs, full service agreements?
What are you seeing out on the landscape US-wise?
Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, I think, um, the TSAs haven’t changed much.
Allen Hall: Okay.
Dan Fesenmeyer: But the- The, the scope and the risk has changed a bit, and the, the OEMs are, you know, holding their cards closer, and it’s hard to get to certain terms that– harder than it used to be.
Allen Hall: So let’s, let’s talk about that for a minute because, uh, there’s been some recent reports speaking to the O&M costs for larger machines.
And so the, the goal was if I went from a [00:07:00] two-megawatt machine to a six-megawatt machine, my O&M cost may be 3x because of the size of the turbine, but ideally they drop. That, uh, the same amount of effort into a larger, m- newer machine, uh, so, uh, my spend wouldn’t go up that much. In, in some places on the planet that I’ve seen feedback about that is that the O&M costs are not 3x, they’re 5x.
So the, the cost to operate the turbine, the six and eight megawatt machines, is higher than it would be proportionally to a two-megawatt machine. I think operators are just trying to start to figure that out. Are the OEMs already knowledgeable of that fact and are s- trying- I, in, in- … to phrase the conversation
I
Dan Fesenmeyer: mean, in the pricing that you get from the OEMs for the full scope agreements, that’s largely in there already.
Allen Hall: Yes.
Dan Fesenmeyer: And I always tell people look at it on a dollar per kWh or dollar per megawatt hour- Ah … basis versus a dollar per turbine, and you- Sure … you’ll see a different number.
Allen Hall: Different calculation done.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Right. But [00:08:00] these, these larger machines, they need larger cranes. They need tall– Yeah, they have taller towers, so a different crane setup, and these components become very, very large. So- Everything gets harder … everything gets d- more difficult. In a basic sense, it’s still oil and gearbox and, you know, tho- tho- Right
that kind of basic service. But when you get into major components and more major maintenance items, then it’s bigger, it can be harder.
Allen Hall: So what does a operator think about that now that they have a little bit of experience? Obviously SunZia, which is a huge project, three and a half gigawatts, uh, a l- several hun- like around 900 turbines, all of them bigger turbines.
It’s a r- for, uh, really the first real taste in America of larger turbines. What are the operators thinking about that, and how are they thinking about what sizes to go with in the future? Or, or, or do they not really have a choice? Like, GE offers six, Vestas offers six, Siemens will offer a six or a seven, [00:09:00] so those are your choices.
They’re– You’re not able to get a two megawatt machine anymore.
Dan Fesenmeyer: I mean, I think, uh, it really comes down to your, your site. Okay. And the larger machines are generally better when you have land constraints or, uh, y- your, your wind resource varies very differently. Think of a ridgeline, and you only have a certain number of pads.
But generally, it’s kind of a pad constraint to push you to the larger, and then your smaller, “smaller,” four and four to four and a half- … megawatt machines, those are still kind of the workhorses of, of the US, in my opinion. Their NCS better, they’re e- they’re lower cost, but you need more pads. So it’s always that trade-off of pads versus space, spacing, uh, and in the end, you just want to get the most AEP out of that site.
Allen Hall: In terms of marketplace, are you seeing prices generally rise dollars per megawatt on [00:10:00] new turbines? ‘Cause the, at least the market indication is that, uh, some of the OEMs have- Real strength in the marketplace today. This is an, an OEM-strong market. They can set- Mm-hmm … prices now. There’s fewer players. China has been eliminated from a lot of lo- locales.
Mm. So they don’t have the competition. That allows them to raise prices. Are you starting to see that flow down in some of the contracts, that, hey, the prices are going up? But, but i- inflation has been a big part of that, too. Well,
Dan Fesenmeyer: yeah, yeah. I mean, there’s… And tariffs, right? The, uh, that, that’s the most interesting one right now, and you have to kind of peel apart what’s my pre-tariff price versus my post, and then what’s the exposure if these tariffs change?
And-
Allen Hall: Is that in the contracts now? Are they able to write contracts that tie them to what the tariffs could be, so your final price really depends on what the tariffs are today or tomorrow?
Dan Fesenmeyer: It’s generally… Well, things have changed and, and things are always fluid, but, [00:11:00] but most recently it’s, “Well, here’s what the tariffs are today,” and when we either bring in the component or when the OEM’s actually paying that tariff, it’s kind of a pass-through
Allen Hall: in essence.
So they’re just handing you the, the bill for the tariff- Yeah … in a sense.
Dan Fesenmeyer: I mean, that- that’s it. And then you can maybe negotiate and do some things around that to share risk a little bit. Mm-hmm. But the basic premise is, you know, there’s transparency on here’s the countries and the tariff rates. If these change, that’s on the buyer.
Allen Hall: So the OEMs are trying to address that in, in some form w- by moving production into the United States. Vestas has a large blade facility in Colorado. They’ve been expanding that over the last several months. They’ve been hiring quite a bit. Uh, GE with LM up in North Dakota and TPI, and all the discussions around TPI at the minute is to really bolster their supply chain.
Uh, they’re trying to get away from the tariffs as much as they can. Are, [00:12:00] are you… You think you’re still gonna see more of that where a Siemens, a GE, a Vestas are gonna be investing more in the United States to avoid that tariff, or is it just impossible?
Dan Fesenmeyer: I, I mean, I think you… What they’ve done, I… It seems to me, I’m not obviously an expert on that, but it- they’ve moved things where they can And to capture- Mm
you know, where you already have capacity. But starting, yeah, building a new plant somewhere, I’m not sure how wise that is in the environment that we’re in.
Allen Hall: Yeah, you saw a lot of plants that were proposed two, three years ago that have, were never built. It does seem like existing plants that were on site that were closed got reopened.
Kansas, Iowa- Mm-hmm … some of those plants got- Mm-hmm … started over again, which is easier to do, which makes a lot of sense. So they’re going after the, the easiest things first still. We’re in that phase of we’re not gonna put a lot of money into the United States however. We’re gonna utilize what we have and maybe grow what we have.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Right. Or, or similarly, you can move from, if you have more of a… All these supply [00:13:00] chains are global at this point.
Allen Hall: Sure.
Dan Fesenmeyer: But if you happen to have a factory in a country with a lower tariff and versus one that’s higher, maybe you move that. You’re not bringing it over to the US, but you’re moving from, let’s say, India to the UK.
Allen Hall: Sure. So, so- Okay, so there, there’s a lot of sh- card shuffling going on- Yeah … to avoid tariffs.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah, and unfortunately then the tariffs change and- … perhaps you have to change back. And, and the other one, uh, that’s out there, obviously the Supreme Court had their ruling on tariffs, so folks are waiting for a Section 232, which is
Allen Hall: still- Untouchable, in a sense?
Uh-
Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, it- people are just waiting for what, what will Section 232 be. And it’s been looming for months now.
Allen Hall: Over a year.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Yes. So, and, you know, we’re waiting, I guess.
Allen Hall: Is the feeling about that in the industry, uh… I’ll, well, I’ll use a couple of good examples, I think, which, uh, offshore wind being a real stress point United States, and a lot of [00:14:00] the administration’s work to limit offshore development got stopped in the courts.
So anything that was sort of building turbines, putting, had ships out, putting- Mm … uh, monopiles in, they never got stopped. They were delayed a couple of weeks, but they were never really stopped, and it feels like from the outside looking in, is that the courts are not gonna allow some of these, uh, movements by the administration to take effect.
Is the industry in the United States seeing the tariffs and some of the more extreme things that are happening as temporary or, or are they being a little more cautious, saying, “Yes, offshore wind has won a, a number of lawsuits”? But we may not. And th- with the Department of War and 232 and all those events that are happening, what is the outcome there, and w- how are operators thinking about that?
Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, I think we’re in a, in a market where if you have a project that can get built within this window-
Allen Hall: Yeah …
Dan Fesenmeyer: and [00:15:00] you’ve safe har- Like, those projects- And you’re, you’re just in … are desperately moving forward.
Allen Hall: Okay.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Then- ‘
Allen Hall: Cause the trend has been, if you can get it in the ground, they’re gonna let it be developed.
They haven’t been able- Right … to stop anything halfway through. Well,
Dan Fesenmeyer: other, like, the FA is a good example of it-
Allen Hall: Sure …
Dan Fesenmeyer: being stopped. But- Yeah … if you have a project that’s being built, you’re moving forward, and then projects that are outside the window, it’s more of a greenfield development view of, of life.
And seems like some folks are selling p- assets, some folks are buying- A
Allen Hall: lot of that …
Dan Fesenmeyer: development assets.
Allen Hall: Let’s go down that pathway for a minute because I did think- Yeah … that’s a very interesting piece to what’s happening in the United States at the minute. There’s a lot of transactions, big dollar transactions happening for wind- Mm-hmm
on buying, selling portfolios, not just farms. It used to be farms. Right. We’ll sell a farm. Yeah. It was. We’ll swap farms, that kind of thing. Now it’s like, uh, would you like our whole portfolio, wind, solar, battery?
Dan Fesenmeyer: Mm-hmm.
Allen Hall: Is that playing into a lot of the decisions that are [00:16:00]happening on the ground right now, that a, a developer or an operator that has assets is saying, this is a prime time to sell.
There’s a l- I have my tax credits already locked in. We’re golden here- Mm-hmm … for several years. The value is never gonna get higher. I need to get out. I- is that the marketplace today, is-
Dan Fesenmeyer: I think for some. I mean- Yeah … everybody’s got different, uh, motivations, whether they wanna get into wind, get out of wind, greenfield versus repower.
Uh, it, it’s, it’s really their view of the world and their risk profile moving forward, and whether this is a short-term play, long-term. Do we wanna get out of wind? Some people are essentially doing that. Uh, it’s, it’s across the board.
Allen Hall: How’s AI data centers playing into this? What are you hearing?
Dan Fesenmeyer: Oh, I mean, that’s what everybody talks about, AI and data centers, and the demand for power is there.
And- The [00:17:00] issue that, that a lot of us see is wind and solar and battery can all help with that.
Allen Hall: Sure.
Dan Fesenmeyer: And if you want a gas turbine, that’s great, but my former colleagues at GE are gonna tell you it’s 2030- Yes … or later to get one, so what do you do between now and then? And you’re seeing prices go up, which makes these wind farms look pretty good.
Power profile’s nice. Yes. Uh, but you still have hurdles to get, like the FAA, US Fish and Wildlife, all these other hurdles to, you know, that are slowing down wind and solar for that matter too.
Allen Hall: Solar’s been slowed down for sure.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Allen Hall: Does that change, though, with the demand for power in AI data centers?
And it does seem to be a priority in the United States to, to win this AI race. Mm-hmm. Does that loosen some of the reins on renewables to let them go, like just look the other way for a while, while they put a new solar field or wind farm in?
Dan Fesenmeyer: It stands to reason that will happen. Haven’t really seen [00:18:00] it, unfortunately.
But I wo- But I think it will, right? I mean, it, it, it, it almost has to at some point.
Allen Hall: There’s a lot of pressure on Washington DC to let data centers start being developed and, and go.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Mm-hmm.
Allen Hall: But a- as you pointed out, gas turbines are hard to get, and they can’t scale up at the rate at which the demand is.
Right. So your alternative is something really simple, quick and efficient, which would be wind and solar and a little bit of battery. Yeah. I- is that change in the thinking of operators and how they’re thinking about their assets, one, and two, what they’re thinking about in the future? Or are they trying to hook up with an- a- I mean-
a Google, a Facebook, a- Yeah, I
Dan Fesenmeyer: mean, the offtake’s- … SpaceX … there, and that’s generally, you know, it used to be utility PPAs. Then it turned- Right. … into hedge things and C&I. Yeah. And now it’s more, you have this, the data center offtake.
Allen Hall: Is the data center offtake, thinking about it from a, a financial standpoint, which they’re probably not being tied to the grid.
At [00:19:00] least a lot of these, or at least the talk is right now, is the not being connected to the grid to be sort of standalone, feeding a data center, and maybe a piece of fiber optic coming out of the data center. But that’s essentially it. Maybe some backup power on the grid just in case things go horribly wrong, but standalone power for data centers does make sense.
It would, it would seem to lessen the requirements on wind and solar in terms of interacting with the federal government or the, the power company in a sense. Does that make wind and solar a little more viable because it’s not connected to the grid?
Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, I mean, it will be connected to the grid because when the wind stops blowing, the utility will usually, you know, or, and the sun stops sh- shining- Sure
uh, the utility will kind of provide that power. That w- Or the gas turbines that they have would- Gas turbine will kick
Allen Hall: in, right.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Yes. Yeah. But, but generally speaking, you’re never truly off the grid, but it does speed things up with interconnection and, and, you know, your T&D [00:20:00] line is much shorter.
Allen Hall: Right.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Or not, you know- Much
much, much shorter. Yeah. Depending where the, the resource is and versus the plant or the, the data center.
Allen Hall: So what are the things that we don’t know in the industry that you’re in touch with that we should know? ‘Cause there, there must be a lot happening behind the scenes that we don’t hear out in public or in the common spaces of some of these conferences that are happening behind the scenes.
What is, what is the status right now? What do you think the status is of wind?
Dan Fesenmeyer: I mean, it’s, I, I, I’m a big sailor, and sometimes the wind’s blowing hard- … you’re going fast, and sometimes you sail into what we call a hole- Yeah … and it’s just dead quiet. We’re not quite there yet, but, um, it, it’s kind of we’re going through a bit of a lull right now.
And I think, I think what people don’t realize is the multiple roadblocks that the industry’s facing. In the past, we’ve had PTCs lapse, and the question is when and if it [00:21:00] will be renewed. Yeah. Now you have other roadblocks, you know, whether it’s, again, FAA, Fish and Wildlife, permitting, different localities.
Some… And this goes back to the data center. A lot of local, you know, communities don’t want a data center.
Allen Hall: Right. There’s a lot of-
Dan Fesenmeyer: Right? And they’re like, “Well, wait a minute. My power prices as a citizen are gonna go up- True … because of it.”
Allen Hall: Yeah, it’s true. We’ve already seen it.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. Yeah. So, so there’s a lot of just new barriers that have come up.
Allen Hall: Okay. That-
Dan Fesenmeyer: But wind developers are an extremely resilient bunch, and-
Allen Hall: This isn’t the first rodeo-
Dan Fesenmeyer: Right …
Allen Hall: where they’ve had these issues pop up- Yeah … and PTCs stop and other world forces affect the industry. What’s the outlook over the next three to five years, do you think? Different administration in a couple years, maybe different outlook, more demand on…
for power, AI data centers. Is- it just gonna [00:22:00] overwhelm any resistance to wind and solar and battery?
Dan Fesenmeyer: I mean, it, it, that’s kind of a crystal ball, but I think if these data centers start getting built out like people think they will, there’ll be demand for power. And, now we’re talking basic economics, Supply, demand. People need power, then power plants will get built and, whether it’s gas, wind, solar-
Allen Hall: All of the above
Dan Fesenmeyer: All of the above, right? And, and I think it will ultimately follow that. I think the, administration will let you know if there’s not enough power or power gets too expensive, something has to break and fill that gap
Allen Hall: because- So let the economics play out a little bit.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah, right? Yeah. ‘Cause we’re, we’re voters, right? And- Sure … and, um, people vote often with their pocketbooks.
Allen Hall: And wind and solar are cheap sources of energy, and they’re gonna come to the top of the list almost every time.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah.
Allen Hall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree with you. Uh, it’s good to see you again. We saw you a few months [00:23:00] ago at WOMA in Australia, and that was wonderful.
And I tell a lot of the operators we talk to, “You better be talking to Dan and WindQuest Advisors because you really need to understand what your contracts say and the contract you’re signing, and you need to have a better sense of what’s happening, a little more broader speak in the United States and elsewhere- Mm-hmm
and they should be talking to you.” So how do they call or how do they contact WindQuest Advisors to get started?
Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, www.windquestadvisors.com or reach out to Allen and his team. You’re on LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn as well- … both personally and my firm. And, um, ask a friend ’cause I have a, we have- … big networks that everybody…
You know, it’s, it’s a small community here. It
Allen Hall: is.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Right?
Allen Hall: It is.
Dan Fesenmeyer: And, and people bounce around different firms and, but people stay connected, so, um, that’s a great way to find each other as well.
Allen Hall: Yeah. Great to see you, Dan. Likewise. Thank you. Thanks for being on the podcast. And yeah, we’ll hopefully see you in Australia in a couple months.
Dan Fesenmeyer: Looking forward to
[00:24:00] it.
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