Dan Pickel joins the Uptime Spotlight today to discuss the NFPA’s Wind Turbine Technician I certification program. The program allows technicians to gain standardized recognition for their skills and understanding of safety protocols. With NFPA’s extensive background in fire and electrical safety training, the course covers the topics wind turbine technicians need to know and can be taken online.
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Allen Hall: We have a distinguished guest who is at the forefront of developing professional standards in the rapidly growing wind energy sector. Dan Pickel is the Director of Certification and Accreditation at the National Fire Protection Association. Today, Dan will be discussing NFPA’s groundbreaking Wind Turbine Technician I certification program.
Which addresses the critical need for qualified technicians in our rapidly expanding wind energy sector. With projections showing a demand for over 500, 000 technicians globally by 2027, this certification program couldn’t come at a more crucial time.
Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining light on wind energy’s brightest innovators.
This is the progress powering tomorrow.
Allen Hall: Welcome to the program.
Dan Pickel: Thanks for having me. I’m really appreciative to be here today.
Allen Hall: It’s great to have you because there’s so many questions about this new certification and we decided to just go to the expert and find out. So, you know, obviously the wind energy sector is growing at a tremendous rate.
And with that comes issues about finding qualified technicians, and the new certification program is trying to address that, correct?
Dan Pickel: Yeah, so we, we developed the certification program, and I know we’ll get into the, the meat of it later on, but it was meant to address that issue where there are, there’s a lack of, uh, knowledge and skills for individuals that are entering the, uh, the industry as a wind turbine technician.
Joel Saxum: Yeah. You see, you hear that from a lot of service providers, right? Rather it’s blade repair, torque and tensioning construction. We’re at the point in the industry where we’re, we’re, we’re starting to just, I know this is for lack of a better term, but like grabbing warm bodies and training them up as fast as we can and throwing them out there.
Well, what, what that ends up doing is it kind of shoots us in the footlong run because you end up with cost of port quality issues, you know, other, other safety issues and things on site, let alone the technical knowledge. Yeah. Uh, that’s needed to advance the, the wind sector here, especially in the United States.
Dan Pickel: Yeah, definitely. I think there’s, we’ve spoken to, uh, some of NFPA’s customers in the past and their push is to get people to right trading. They want to make sure that their new employees have all the tools they need to be successful and to be safe out in the field. And they were struggling because there are some other training options out there.
Um, they reached out to us about getting 70E training for electrical safety, but they were finding that wasn’t enough. There were still some issues on the field. They were telling us about some really unsafe conditions that were Caused by people just being unskilled and, and not knowledgeable in terms of what they should be doing.
So that was when we really started to dig into the idea of developing a certification for entry-level wind turbine technicians, which is what we ended up doing.
Allen Hall: So that lack of a. standardized approach or some sort of label that’s applied to technicians, like they’re qualified to be here, that really affects two ends of it.
It affects the company that is hiring them, but it also affects a technician that is competent because they kind of get grouped into the larger pool where there’s sort of a mixed bag of, of technician qualifications.
Dan Pickel: Yeah. And that’s, that’s where certification. Can really be a game changer for individuals.
So if you look at two different candidates for the same job, um, you know, same education, same training, same experience, but one of them certified, I think what that shows is that there is a, um, that person invested in themselves. So they apply for the program. They take the job. You know, took whatever training they needed to, they studied for the exam, then they passed it.
And certification exams are meant to be pretty rigorous, so it’s, they’re developed by subject matter experts related to the actual job role. So if you look at those two individuals, they will, who should I, should I hire? Most employers are going to go with the person that invested themselves because that’s a, you know, a predictor of success.
Allen Hall: So let’s, let’s break this down a
Program is relatively new. I think I first heard about it this summer. And what from the industry drove you? Was it just an industry consensus? Was it, uh, industry resource groups that were saying, Hey, NFPA, you do a lot of certifications. You’re the leading body, particularly United States, for this. We need you to develop something.
Or how did this really come about?
Dan Pickel: I get emails and calls all the time from people with ideas for certification saying this person or this group of people don’t know what they’re doing. We need a certification. So at that point, we look into the business case. It’s what’s what’s the industry? What’s the role maturity?
You know, um, do we have any connection to that industry? As well, because NFPA works with fire life and electrical safety hazards, is this something that makes sense for us? In a lot of cases, it doesn’t. When we’re looking at the wind turbine technician role, uh, there’s a lot of, you know, electrical issues, um, electrical shock issues that we are hearing about.
Um, there’s some fall safety, there’s PPE issues, there’s hydraulics and mechanical systems and, and a lot of those align with what NFPA does, its mission. So we looked at that and we thought, this makes sense. Is the role mature enough? And from what we could find, it was. So we talked with subject matter experts about this, and ultimately we invited people to, to join our certification advisor group.
Now that’s a group of subject matter experts. They’re primarily based in the US, but, uh, several of them were based abroad. And, you know, we, we met with them to talk about what, what does this thing look like in terms of role? So we had a role delineation to determine what is exactly done by people that perform.
And that involves a pretty robust job task analysis and a number of other steps to come to a, uh, you know, formalized exam blueprint, which is the basis for the exam.
Allen Hall: Oh, wow. Okay. So who were some of the participants in this? And obviously a lot of the wind turbine, uh, Operators, and obviously the manufacturers, are not based in the U.
S., so there must have been a lot of differing inputs into that advisory group.
Dan Pickel: Yeah. So we have a, we have a, uh, a program overview that lists all of our, uh, CAG members, or the Certification Advisory Group members. Some came from GE, some came from Vestas. A lot of them had been working in the U. S., but then also worked abroad, and they traveled a bunch, so, and they’d worked at different companies, so they were, you pretty knowledgeable about what the different, uh, you know, manufacturers were doing, what the different installers were doing, and what, what maintenance companies were doing as well.
So we, we were really, we benefited from their expertise quite a bit when developing the certification program.
Allen Hall: Oh, that’s interesting. And the assessment that is performed to really determine competency, there are, from what I can see from the website, and if you haven’t visited the NFPA website, you should visit it and just put in wind turbine technician and it’ll pop right up to the page.
Wonderful site. There’s a lot of good information there. There are really four general areas that the comprehensive assessment is looking into. Uh, mechanical systems, hydraulic systems, electrical systems, and then sort of working at heights in general safety. But when you look at the distribution here, there’s a lot about general safety, which is a little alarming.
We should have that locked in already.
Dan Pickel: We should, yeah. So the way that it works is, so we, we work with our subject matter experts. We come up with this job task analysis. So it’s, what are all the behavioral things? What are the tasks that someone needs to perform to be competent in a role? Okay. Thank you.
So they put this list together and then what we do is we’ve sent it out as a validation survey to anyone that’s in the wind industry that works as a wind turbine technician. And they answered two questions in the survey for each of those tasks is how frequently do you perform the task and how critical is it?
Now we use that as a way to understand. How much of the exam should be devoted to specific sections? And when we got the results of the survey, we saw that a lot of individuals were saying, you know, on the, on this final don’t, uh, content domain related to safety at heights and just general safety, this is where we really are spending our time.
This is really critical. And that’s what we use to develop the, uh, the certification exemptions blueprint.
Allen Hall: That’s fascinating, because you think that the PPE working at heights is just ingrained into every technician, but maybe because the industry is growing so fast, it’s one of those areas that kind of gets lackadaisical as you go along in the industry.
Dan Pickel: Certainly could be. I mean, imagine someone is just getting into the industry and they don’t understand how to work at heights. Uh, they don’t understand how to, you know, properly use PPE. That’s, that’s really a critical thing. at that stage, but also it’s something they do frequently and it’s critical for their safety.
So that’s where I imagine as they were going through this survey and indicating how critical is this, I would find it pretty critical as well.
Joel Saxum: Honestly, though, when you get, even when we’re talking newcomers, but even people that are seasoned vets, one of the times that you get the A frequency, if you start looking at HSE statistics, a frequency of accidents, incidents, um, it happens based on complacency as well.
A lot of them happen, a lot of times it happens, to someone who’s been in the industry for 5 10 years and they’ve done this task a thousand times, so they become a little bit, you know, lackadaisical or, in that sense, or, a lot of times it’s on a hitch. When someone’s been out for 28 days and on day 27 or day 28 in the morning, when they’re thinking about going home, that’s when something happens.
So even having people brush up on these ideas in the midst of their career to achieve this certification is a good idea. So the people that were, that are being targeted for the certification that we’re looking at, People that work in the field, whether you work for an ISP, um, you’re a service provider of some sort, or you work for an operator and you’re a part of that operating team, or you work for an OEM, it’s basically anybody hands on that will touch a turbine in the field, correct?
Dan Pickel: Yeah, that’s correct.
Allen Hall: So let’s walk through the mechanical, hydraulic, electrical systems aspects of the assessment. It’s not, it’s not turbine specific. And I think a lot of technicians would get really worried about that. Like, hey, I just work GE turbines. I don’t know anything about Siemens turbines. So if you ask me, I’m not going to be able to answer that.
Are these questions in those three sections, are they more generic, like this is how a turbine generally works, on the braking system, and those sort of things? Is it sort of top level understanding of what’s happening inside of a turbine?
Dan Pickel: Yeah, it’s really high level, so we’re not looking at schematics for any particular type of manufacturer design.
It’s, you know, do you have the high level understanding of hydraulic systems, of, um, of mechanical systems, of electrical systems, and it, it, it isn’t devoted to any particular manufacturer.
Allen Hall: Okay. So, in the, sort of, the prep for this, if, if I’m interested in taking this exam and getting certified. What kind of prep work would I need to do before I took the assessment?
Dan Pickel: Yeah, so we had initially been in conversations with, uh, GWO and, and part of what we did was we looked at their training, uh, curricula as we were developing the certification exam. So, um, there, right now there isn’t a, devoted training course to this certification and we were talking with some training providers about developing something like that.
But I think when you look at G. W. O. ‘s basic safety training and basic technical training, those are going to cover most of what would be in the certification exam.
Allen Hall: Uh, okay. So they probably already have taken courses, been schooled up This is not deep but it’s really, knowledge of a particular aspect. It is really just, hey, how does this term work?
That, that’s, that’s fascinating because I think a lot of technicians would be interested in that if, if that’s the case. Are there eligibility requirements to take this exam? Yeah,
Dan Pickel: there are. And there’s really two pathways here. So one of them is that you took a training course that covers the exam blueprint.
And the other is that you’ve been working in the industry for six months. So that could be for an ISP or someone else, but you can verify that you’ve worked there and then you would meet that eligibility criteria and you could sit to take the exam.
Allen Hall: So would that be part of an onboarding process? I think a lot of ISPs right now that are bringing in.
Um, hundreds of technicians at a time is getting him on site, getting him working for six months, seeing how it all plays out, and then taking this exam to say, all right, let’s just check your competency. We’ll see how everybody’s doing. And from a company standpoint, that would make a lot of sense, right?
Dan Pickel: You know, we think so. Um, when we look at certification, those exam blueprints, so what is it that, uh, goes into the role? What are the tasks that need to be performed? What’s the knowledge with the skills? On top of it being sort of the basis for our certification exam, it’s also meant to be the basis for potential instructional design.
So it’s, we’re working with subject matter experts to understand what does someone do? What do they do? And that’s meant to be The, you know, a foundation for anyone that’s looking to develop a course that is teaching someone how to do those things. So we have those subject matter experts build that exam blueprint, hoping that it will become the, you know, the, the basis for a, an instructional design for a course that just going to prepare people for this type of a role.
So when you look at how this could potentially be used. There are a lot of organizations out there hiring lots of people and the industry is growing a ton. So we want to make sure people are safe and understand the role. This is something that they look at, say, can we align our, our internal training with this certification exam blueprint?
I think that’s maybe the first step if they don’t want to bring in an outside trainer. And then you can utilize a certification exam as a way to understand, all right. We went through this with our employees. Now, this is, this is meant to be sort of. A way to separate proficient from non proficient candidates.
Let’s, let’s have our employees take this as a way to really set that, that benchmark for our workforce development, uh, internally.
Joel Saxum: So the goal here is, is to roll this thing out to the wind industry. Is it just in the United States or is it going to be a global thing?
Dan Pickel: So when we were talking with our certification advisory group, like my questions always, you know, how, how localized is this?
Is this just an American thing? Um, is this a, you know, uh, you know, North American thing? And the response we got was that a lot of the, the wind turbines that are going up around the world are coming from the same manufacturers. So it was a lot of the same competencies. There’s a lot of the same skills.
They, they plug into different grids, but outside of that, The role is largely the same. So people, you know, in Asia could take this certification exam if they speak English and, and they would, you know, it would benchmark them the same way that it would benchmark someone in America that’s working as a wind turbine technician.
Joel Saxum: So you guys are actively trying to roll this thing out to operators, ISPs, directly to technicians. I know that was kind of a part of the goal too, is any which way it can get into the industry, but you’re looking for buy in from operators and buy in from the OEMs that this is a standard that they want to adhere to.
Dan Pickel: Yeah, think that’s right. Um, I don’t know what’s going to be the most successful way to help this certification grow. And, and, and in that way, I mean, I want the certification to be utilized as a way for individuals to separate themselves, differentiate themselves from their competitors when they’re applying for jobs, but also as a way to, to make sure that they’re safe and they’re going home at the end of the day.
Is that, that’s what we want. We want to make sure that we’re going to be able to hit our renewable energy growth goals. We want to make sure everyone is safe and revenue is great. But honestly, we built this because we wanted to make sure that that people are safe and that the companies that we work with.
are able to understand what those, you know, what are those competencies that someone needs to have to be safe in that role.
Allen Hall: I want to briefly touch on this because NFPA does a lot of certification work. It is not easy to, if you think that as an ISP, you’re going to create this set of standards on your own and, and go through the process that Tan has been through, good luck.
Because creating exams and, and evaluations are a rigorous, Well thought out u usually multi-year process so that you’re getting the qualified candidate, your, your desire without having some skewed results. It’s kind of like when you got outta school taking me a g or, or SAT or a CT one of those exams.
Those things are rigorous and, but there’s like scientists and evaluations and surveys. And all this work is done behind the scenes, I do think there’s, uh, uh, some emphasis going on right now in terms of the ISPs to try to have some sort of examination, but I’m always concerned, like, are you the right person to do that?
NFPA is. Can you explain all the work that goes on behind the scenes, or how you got to this point of being like the certification expert?
Dan Pickel: Yeah, it is a rigorous process. And I think people are used to the SATs. The SAT is meant to separate each person from everyone else along a bell curve, right? It’s a norm referenced exam.
Just trying to figure out where do you fall along that bell curve. Certification exams are pretty rigorous. Primarily criterion based, which means the criteria is, are you proficient or non proficient? It’s not a bell curve. It looks a little bit like a skewed bell curve, but, uh, the, the important point is figuring out what’s the, what’s, what’s that line of proficiency and that’s where that cut score is.
Now there’s, there’s a, a lot of work that goes into that as well. So, you know, we go through that whole job task analysis and the exam blueprint setting through the validation survey, which I mentioned. Then we do all the training with our subject matter experts to write items for the exam. Now, items are another way to say is questions.
It’s not easy. And I think everyone thinks, Oh, I’ll just pump some out. Usually it takes someone like an hour to get the first one and it’s terrible. And then it, so it, it’s, it’s a tough process. And a lot of people are like, Oh, I want to, I want to contribute. And then they get in there. Like, I hate this. I can never do this.
They’re like, all right. So if, if you’re better at just judging items, I have a spot for you as well. So once those, those questions, once those items have been developed, they are reviewed by NFPA tech services, uh, we review them as well for best practices. And then we have, we take the, the items that align with the blueprint and we go through a process called standard setting.
That’s where we have a, a group of subject matter experts. We talk about, all right, what is a minimally qualified candidate? Cause that’s the line. So who would barely pass this exam? Now look at each one of these questions and determine what percentage of that minimally qualified candidate would get this right.
Not should, that’s a different question, but what, what percentage would get this right based on your conception. And we go through that with them and then figure out, all right. So on a, you know, for the, the wind turbine certification exam, there’s 60 questions on there. What number of items do people need to get right?
And because each exam is maybe more, more difficult or easier, that passing point, that cut score is different. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a little bit of a science, a little bit of an art to determine what’s that, that’s that line for the cut score. But at the end of it, we have this, this. Certification exam, which has a cut score, which has been developed by subject matter experts, and it, it separates individuals along that line.
So we, we know who’s proficient, we know who’s not proficient, need some more training or more experience before they, they should take it again.
Allen Hall: Very difficult task for sure. Oh, let’s just, let’s just bump into the, the cost of taking the, the, the certification process. What, what does that look like?
Dan Pickel: To take the exam, there’s just one fee, and it’s 249.
Uh, someone would go in through, you need to have an NFPA. org account. So, log in to NFPA. org, you click on a link for the Certification Management System. Then you fill out an application. At the end of it, you would pay the fee. From that point, uh, you would then decide whether you want to take the exam at a, an in person testing site through our Testing Vendor Prometric.
And there are hundreds in the U. S. and, you know, more than a thousand globally. Or you can choose to take it as an online remote proctor exam where you need to have a webcam, a stable internet connection, and a relatively clean room. Uh, and then you, you would be able to schedule, um, pretty much at any time.
You know, day or night, uh, you know, during the week or weekends, uh, they’re, they’re always running those things. So, uh, it’s, it’s whatever is most convenient for you. Now, what I should say is that there are people that love taking exams in that online remote proctoring environment, and there are people that hate it.
And no one knows who they are until they do it. Um, but there’s no in between. You either love it or you hate it. So just want to put that out there. Um, if you’re not sure if you’re going to love it, I’d recommend going to an actual physical testing site. But if you’re far away, and part of the reason we, we implemented the online remote proctored environment is because some people live far away from testing sites.
Now they would have to find childcare. They’d have to take the day off. Having that. Ability breaks down some of the traditional barriers to certification. So that’s why we offer it. But again, if you hate online remote projects exams, we have another option for you.
Allen Hall: Oh, that’s sweet. Uh, so if I, you know, if I was to take this, I’m sure I would not pass it on the first go through.
That was just the way that I take exams. If you don’t, what’s, what is the repeat effort look like to take a exam again? Is it another 249 or is it kind of built into the initial fee?
Dan Pickel: So you get the one exam for the 249. I think it’s 199 for a retest. So it’s 50 bucks less. And, uh, and then it’s, you know, you just go back in through the CMS.
It will update with your, uh, your failed score and you just click retest and you’re done. schedule to take it again.
Allen Hall: All right. So if in every certification process, there’s a recertification effort that has to happen, how, how often would I have to recertify to keep this certification?
Dan Pickel: It’s on the same timeline as all of our other certifications.
So that’s every three years. So you get certified from the day you get certified, you have three years to recertify. And that’s a process where you have to, at NFPA, um, you have to earn enough points. Now this can be, these points can either be earned by, uh, working in the industry and, and verified that work or, uh, taking continue education courses.
Allen Hall: Well, that’s like, okay. So there’s, there’s a real emphasis on continuing education, which there should be in the wind industry because it’s, it’s changing so rapidly. It’s, it’s hard to keep pace sometimes.
Dan Pickel: Yeah, it’s absolutely right. I mean, I think we all have, you know, uh, degrees from whatever programs and they’re all, they’re all, you know, valuable, but they’re all sort of, um, that at that point in time, there’s no requirement to continue to, you know, learn anything else.
Like I have some diplomas behind me that, uh, like this one says public policy analysis. You shouldn’t hire me to do a job in public policy analysis. I haven’t, I haven’t looked at the stuff in 20 years. Um, but for a certification, you earn it after taking a rigorous exam. And then you have to continue to prove that you’re in the industry.
You’re still taking courses. Um, you could, you know, earn points by being part of a board or writing industry articles, or maybe doing podcasts. We don’t have that on there yet, but maybe that’s somewhere to go. Bud. But being involved in the industry is how you maintain that certification. And, uh, and when people see that, they say, all right, well, you know, not only did this person earn a certification, but there’s a requirement that they continue to learn, continue to grow, to, to maintain it.
Allen Hall: If anybody wants to learn about the certification process for wind turbine technician, one, uh, certification, where should they go?
Dan Pickel: Sure. So best way to find out information outside of listening to this fantastic podcast, um, is to go to nfba. org and you go to there, there’s going to be an option, um, click at the top, you’ll get a dropdown for certification.
And then from there, you can choose the wind turbine technician one program and learn specifically what’s involved in that program on that page. There’s a program overview. That document includes the, uh, that exam blueprint. So you’re going to want to take a look at that first before you take the exam. I don’t, I don’t want to surprise anyone what’s on there.
Uh, I know we, we touched on those main content domains, but take a look because if you’re missing some pieces from there, there’s a chance that you may not pass. So go through it, understand where there might be a gap in your knowledge, make sure that you’re filling that gap, and then go ahead and take the exam.
Allen Hall: Absolutely. And if you’re a service provider or a training school in the U. S., do they reach out to you directly or do they also access via the NFPA website?
Dan Pickel: Yeah, they can always, uh, look, they can always go through the certification management platform as well. If it’s a larger organization that’s interested in having, uh, their, you know, workforce go through the process.
They can reach out to me and we can figure out a discount to get them all set up with, with vouchers to take the certification exam.
Allen Hall: And how do they reach you, Dan? Do they go via email or LinkedIn? You find me
Dan Pickel: on LinkedIn. A lot of people do. Um, but, uh, you can also reach out to me through email. It’s the best way to do it.
So that’s, uh, dpickel@nfpa.org or DPICKEL, looks like pickle, but I pronounce it the fancy way, um, at NFPA. org.
Allen Hall: Wow. This has been really interesting because it’s one of the missing areas in WIND right now is competency exams, and the NFPA is the right organization to go ahead and do this. Dan, thanks for your time and explaining all the intricacies and what goes on behind it, and Yeah, if any, if you’re a technician out there or you’re a training facility or an ISP and you wanted to get involved, reach out to Dan because he’s the right person to talk to.
So Dan, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Dan Pickel: Thanks for having me. This has been great.
https://weatherguardwind.com/nfpa-wind-certification/
Well, never is a long time, as they say.
Yet imagine this scenario, which is quite possible:
Trump is impeached and removed. Almost immediately, there is an incredible outpouring of information on an additional set of crimes committed by Trump and his administration. Simultaneously, the U.S. morphs into a social democracy, and its people enjoy quality education, access to healthcare, and prosperity, not unlike those in Northern Europe and elsewhere around the globe.
Yes, there will always be Republicans promising mass deportations and whatever else appeals to a dwindling MAGA base, but I would think they will have one hell of a hard time winning a national election.
The GOP can say the American economy is skyrocketing. But then there’s that nasty little piece of reality that people can’t afford groceries and are suffering financially more generally.
Or they can day that people are suffering financially, but it’s Biden’s fault. Oops. Biden left office 588 days ago.
Or they can say that the war in Iran has driven up gas prices, but that will turn immediately because we’ve won the war. Yikes. What can we say about all these bombs?
Or they can say that all the racial hatred and divisiveness is Obama’s fault. No, that’s problematic, since he’s been gone for almost 10 years.
Trump supporters may not be too sharp, but even they are having trouble accepting all this crap.
Weather Guard Lightning Tech
India Locks Down Turbine Data, Danish Wind Jobs Dip
India now requires turbine data, control centers, and R&D to sit inside its borders. Plus a study on reverse flow loads in parked blades, Envision’s spare parts push across Southeast Asia, and Danish wind employment falling to 32,700.
The Uptime Wind Energy Podcast is brought to you by Weather Guard Lightning Tech, creators of the StrikeTape Ultra LPS retrofit. Subscribe to Uptime’s Substack newsletter. And check out Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” Youtube channel. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!
The Uptime Wind Energy podcast, brought to you by StrikeTape. Protecting thousands of wind turbines from lightning damage worldwide. Visit striketape.com. And now, your hosts
Rosemary Barnes: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy podcast. I’m your host, Rosemary Barnes, and I’m filling in for Allen today here with Jolanda Pedron. All right, onto our first story. India is drawing a line around its wind data. The Ministry of New and Renewable Energy has ordered every turbine maker on the approved list of models and manufacturers to report where its data actually lives.
Data centers inside India, servers inside India, research centers inside India, and no real-time data leaving the country. The order went out last week with status reports due by month-end. And while the government tightens the rules on data, the hardware keeps moving in. Flender has just opened another generator plant in Chennai [00:01:00] Yolanda, I think this is gonna have a large impact on the number of companies who are, you know, there’s a lot of companies around today developing, like, smarts for wind turbines.
There’s a lot of scope to operate turbines better, to improve power output, reduce maintenance costs, et cetera, and y- a lot of companies are taking advantage of that. Even Patlow has some projects going on in that sort of area. What do you think about the impact this will be? Is India planning to develop their entire own ecosystem for that aspect of the industry?
I
Yolanda Padron: mean, it looks like it, right? Which is really, I mean, kind of groundbreaking. I know that we talked a couple weeks ago about Europe sort of being a little bit scared of bringing in, um, different manufacturers from Asia, um, and just the, the idea of cybersecurity being something really prevalent and really important to all of these people.
So just if India starts siloing everything and that works, maybe that’ll translate to Europe.
Rosemary Barnes: Do you think that it, it can work? Has India [00:02:00] got the expertise in place already to, to make this work, or is this gonna be a real, like, handbrake on their, their wind industry continuing to develop as fast as it has been?
Yolanda Padron: I mean, I’m really curious to see it because I don’t know if they’ll bring in a lot more experts to be able to, to do that.
Rosemary Barnes: I know the Indian, um, operating environment is quite different to other locations. I mean, it’s, it’s similar in a way to Australia in its dissimilarity, if that makes sense. I, I think there’s a lot of really India-specific problems, so of course Indian companies are gonna be best placed to take advantage of that.
But what we’ve seen so far is a lot of, uh, companies from Europe or America coming in to y- you know, like tweak the way that they attack similar problems in other markets. They’re, you know, moving in to understand India better and take advantage of that. Now, of course, like not every smart operating method or aerodynamic improvement, they don’t all need [00:03:00] real-time data, and probably most of them don’t actually.
So I think it’s not gonna like s- snip off this entire kind of improvement. But it is really interesting. It’s quite, like it is quite severe, the restrictions, and I haven’t heard of any other market, um, that is doing that. I, I don’t know, do you think it’s warranted or is it maybe like overly paranoid? I know when I heard that in, um, in Europe they’re not allowing Chinese manufacturers of inverters, for example, and I just felt like, “Ugh, is that a bit over the top?”
I’m not sure. Um, yeah, what’s your opinion, Yolanda?
Yolanda Padron: I think it, it might be a little bit over the top. We live in such a globalized world that the idea of one country just siloing completely is, is a little bit strange to me. But- I guess if, if that’s, they have a, a reason for concern, then I guess it might make sense.
But to your earlier point, like, I don’t know if the cost of doing this [00:04:00]would also come into play
Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, I think that there’s always a, a, a trade-off. It’s like when you have any kind of l- local content rule, which is similar in a way because it forces, um, yeah, it, it forces your own ecosystem to develop, and that’s, that’s great.
Like, it is a missed opportunity if you just have, you know, like a huge new industry and you just import it all, then that i- is a lost opportunity for your own economy. But I mean, in the past, India has had pretty strong local content rules, and they do have a bunch of wind energy manufacturing, um, within the country.
They are a country known for really great engineering, so it’s for sure not beyond them to, you know, step up. So yeah, I guess time will tell if this is a smart move from that point of view. I don’t think it’s actually the motivation behind this rule. I think it’s more of a, like, a cybersecurity, um, kind of perspective where you don’t want, you know, overseas companies having the ability to shut down your energy system, for example.
Um, [00:05:00] so yeah, but it, it has the potential to have that other effect of, you know, like boosting the local industry or alternatively just slowing down the whole industry because they can’t get anything done. I guess that’s always that balance that you need to, need to look at when you’re looking at local content.
So India is deciding who gets to control the data inside a turbine. Our next story is about something inside that same turbine nobody controls yet, the air moving across a blade that isn’t turning. A parked turbine might look like the safest thing on the site. Blades are locked, the rotor’s still, nothing turning, nothing generating.
But a new study says that stillness is not safety. When the rotor is locked and the wind shifts, air can strike the trailing edge first and travel backwards across the blade. That is reverse flow, and in reverse flow, the models this industry uses to predict blade loads start to fall apart. Field data cited in the study suggests blades on turbines above 15 megawatts can go aerodynamically [00:06:00]unstable at winds as low as eight meters per second.
That is nowhere near a storm. So this is actually already definitely a known issue, and I know that modern wind turbines don’t usually park with locked rotors, right, Yolanda?
Yolanda Padron: Yeah.
Rosemary Barnes: We, we saw that a locked rotor during installation was one of the causes of the Vineyard Wind fiasco, right? Where broken blade pieces washed up on the beach.
So definitely something that’s known about.
Yolanda Padron: And it’s something that even onshore you have a, you have your system so that it tracks sort of where the wind is coming from. So even if it’s stopped, it won’t just be stopped at a specific angle, particularly in case the, the winds shift.
Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, and I’ve seen examples of blades failing when, um, there was a storm and there was power lost, so they weren’t able to yaw or pitch a turbine, and that also can cause…
Like, any time that- Wind is going in a different direction than what the turbine desi- was designed for, you’ll get unpredictable stuff happening and often, [00:07:00] like, really bad loads. Like the harshest, um, conditions, loading conditions that a wind turbine blade has to withstand is not in operation. It’s if you’ve got just wind hitting like a bluff body, they call it, where a gust of wind just hits flat on the blade and tries to bend it.
Like that is way, way stronger loading than, um, than anything it would see operationally. If you’re looking at, you know, like a really severe storm, like a one in 50 year kind of, um, wind speeds, and then if you have flow going on weird angles where it’s creating lift, then you can ratchet up those loads even more.
So for sure a known issue. This study, it, it singled out turbines above 15 megawatts, which are huge. That’s a, you know, like a big offshore wind turbine. But I don’t think it’s limited to that. Like what would you think, Yolanda? Is this, is this like purely a big blades thing, or is this something that actually all wind turbines need to take into account?
Yolanda Padron: Oh, this is definitely something that all wind turbines need to take into account. It’s something that we’ve seen a lot in the [00:08:00] US as well, um, onshore and s- wind f- uh, smaller wind farms and wind farms that have, you know, 200 plus, um, wind turbines on them, uh, the, the 1X or 2X turbines. Uh, this is also ver- a, a reason that it’s really important, right, to check your systems constantly, and I know that a lot of the, the owner/operators do that, um, in their regular maintenance checks.
Um, but it’s, it’s, it’s an issue that, uh, if you don’t have the correct systems in place or if you just remotely reset things, uh, because you see an error that maybe you thought, “Oh, that, that must be just a glitch,” uh, then you start having issues like this that can cause catastrophic failures, not just on the blade but on the turbine itself if, if the blade ends up hitting the turbine, um, it, it ends up hitting the, the tower itself.
Uh, and then [00:09:00] a similar issue, um, that can happen too is when you don’t have the correct systems in place for, for an emergency, and so the turbine can just overspin, and that also causes a lot of blade failures, uh, both onshore and, and offshore as well. But I think onshore it’s, it’s just the, the wind farms are so big that it’s It’s easy or, or easier to miss, like, one or two turbines, um, when you’re doing those checks.
Rosemary Barnes: Yeah. And I think another issue with keeping the rotors locked out, and one of the big reasons why they moved to pinwheeling as the, you know, um, turbine off kind of configuration, was with the, the bearings, right? Like, it’s not good for the bearings to be totally stationary. Um, so I think that it’s better to, yeah, pinwheel.
It’s lower loads on the bearings.
Yolanda Padron: Something, um, similar to this as well, right, and, and I think Wind Power posted about it the [00:10:00] other day, um, about just, oh, it’s really common for, for sites to, to think of, of a financial solution to, to negative pricing being just fully stopping turbines that might not be producing at positive pricing.
Um, and then, uh, that can also cause a lot of loading issues because you’re, you’re having a, a turbine at, at full capacity, and then it just stops.
Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, that’s true. The braking loads are, are one of the more extreme loads that turbines have to withstand also. I mean, hopefully if they’re curtailing, um, voluntarily, uh, they’re not doing an emergency brake kind of level.
I hope that they’re being a bit more gentle on their turbines, but yeah, for sure, like, the easiest thing for a turbine to do is just operate normally its whole lifetime. That’s exactly what it was designed to do, and anything that deviates from that can reduce the t- life of the turbine, complicate things.
So machines keep getting bigger, and the physics keep [00:11:00] getting harder. Meanwhile, the map keeps getting wider. Next, a Chinese manufacturer planting both turbines and spare parts across Southeast Asia. Stay with us
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Rosemary Barnes: China’s turbine makers are no longer just shipping machines. They are building the network that keeps those machines running. Envision Energy has secured its largest wind project in Vietnam, 200 megawatts with REE Energy, 25 [00:12:00] turbines, grid connection targeted for October 2027. It is also the company’s largest overseas nearshore project to date.
And Batangas, Philippines, Envision has opened a distribution center holding major components and spare parts close to the projects that need them. Turbines first, then the parts network. Yelena, I’m just wondering if spare parts was a big headache for you when you worked in asset management, and do you think that this plan of, that Envision has is gonna be a successful one for Vietnam?
Yolanda Padron: I think spare parts, having spare parts on site or near a site is always a good strategy. I know that sometimes it can get the, the accounting itself can get a little bit difficult because for at least, you know, in the US for tax purposes, you can’t really sell something from one project to another, so you, you have to be a little bit careful, um, as far as when you hold a part or you’re sending one part that might fit in multiple sites and where you’re technically buying that [00:13:00] from.
Uh, but I think the spare parts that they’re having here I, I think it’s a, it’s a really good idea, right? Because oftentimes you might have a, a big, um, there might be a big queue for a particular component that fails years after, uh, it was produced, and then you– I mean, if you need it now and there’s a big queue now, then you need to wait until it can get to site, until it can be produced, until it’s your turn in line.
Uh, and so just having those components on site or really close to the site I think is a really good idea.
Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, it’s really challenging. Like it’s, it, it’s easy to imagine how you could organize a spare parts network or, you know, just l- literally a bunch of warehouses holding spare parts for the kind of, you know, like one-off failures that happen routinely throughout a wind turbine’s life.
But when you start to see a serial issue or if there’s just, you know, like statistically every now and then [00:14:00] you’ll get clusters of failures even if it’s not a serial issue, that’s when it starts to get really hard. So I know in Australia, and I’m sure it’s the case elsewhere, you kind of got to pair your spare parts inventory with the capability to repair and refurbish as well.
Because sometimes it’s like, you know, you might do, like speaking of blades, which is my specialty, you might have a bill of, you know, maybe even a million dollars to do a really big repair on a blade, but that’s better than spending probably, honestly, the similar amount of money on a brand-new blade, but then that comes with a six-month or a 12-month, um, wait time.
You know, like obviously you’re gonna save overall if you can get that turbine up faster. And we also see a lot of, um, in-country capabilities to refurbish, you know, all of the drivetrain components and, and everything like that, and I think that that is such an important complement. Like your spare parts strategy should never just be about having them physically sitting there, ’cause if you were [00:15:00] to have enough to cover any situation, then, you know, most of your components would go unused over the, the lifetime of the wind farm.
And it’s not like they’re just swap in, swap out for any different wind turbine, right? Like they are usually quite turbine specific.
Yolanda Padron: I completely agree with the idea, especially with blades and how trif- tricky some of the new blades and their, their repair processes can be. It’s really important to have a plan and not necessarily just, “Okay, now I’m gonna throw this one out and bring in a new one, and always hold a new one,” because that’s really expensive.
Um, and it’s also really, really important to, uh, that doesn’t matter what particular part it is, that whatever storage facility you’re using, that you’re, you make sure that the environmental factors impacting the spare parts are taken care of, right? So, um, I know I’ve seen spare parts for a battery site or spare parts for a solar site, uh, that just kind of end up degrading even more than the parts that were in [00:16:00] operations because no one was really looking at them.
They were just outside in the elements, and then you just wasted millions and millions of dollars for really nothing. Um, something that you need to take to the landfill eventually or report.
Rosemary Barnes: Hopefully recycle it if it’s electronic waste.
Yolanda Padron: I completely agree that to, to be able to, to have any sort of replacement strategy, you, or any sort of spare parts strategy, you need to make sure that, that the replacement strategy is there and that the refurbishment strategy is there.
If there’s anything that you can recycle in-house and use in-house, that’s a lot better than just landfilling anything or sending anything to be recycled elsewhere where it just piles and piles and piles up.
Rosemary Barnes: Yeah. I think also it’s reassuring if you’re buying wind turbines from maybe a, a less well-known manufacturer or less well-known in your country, I think it is reassuring to have a, like just a stack of spare parts on site, because that will give you the confidence that if [00:17:00] and when things start to go wrong, you know, a few years into the wind farm’s operation, you are gonna have that capability.
‘Cause I think it is, like it’s a big leap to move away from the really, really well-known, uh, manufacturers into some of the less well-known ones and have the confidence that y- you know, you wouldn’t have any- anyone to ask what they’re like for service, uh, for example, and you might also not have confidence that they’re even gonna exist in, you know, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years’ time.
So having the parts on site can give you that confidence. Although, as you say, if those parts aren’t actually functional when you go to use them, that can be worse than not having them in the first place because you thought that you were okay and then you find yourself scrambling. That’s not ideal at all.
Yolanda Padron: Yeah, I completely agree. I did hear about someone who, um, had a, a blade that they They thought they, they didn’t really have the capabilities in-house to, to restore it, and so they sent it to be recycled, [00:18:00] and then later it was sold to them by their OEM, um, on site. And so I think that also speaks to the…
And, and it was just because someone noticed the serial number was exactly the same and kind of noticed. It was, it was really honestly kind of a funny, funny thing in retrospect. But, uh, and it, it just speaks to the idea of you really need to understand if you’re holding spare parts and, and just in general, even if you don’t wanna hold spare parts.
Um, the idea of being able to refurbish or have a plan to be able to refurbish the, the materials that you have on site is really, really, really important because it can save you so much money. I mean, the, I mean, the, for that case, just the, the transportation costs of hauling the blade off, of paying someone to recycle it, of paying for a new blade, um, and everything just to kind of be bamboozled in that way where you could’ve just repaired it on site is, is It’s almost a no-brainer, yeah.
Rosemary Barnes: I gotta say, that’s like a real recycling win, right? Like, you can’t get [00:19:00] better than, than that. Uh, you know, you had a blade, you recycle it into a blade. It’s, you know, performing exactly the same function, better than shredding it and hiding it in a, you know, a footpath, a sidewalk, or something like that.
Stay with China a moment longer, because the product strategy tells you as much as the project map. Mingyang Smart Energy has unveiled the Tianchi MCD 5 MW turbine at its factory in Guizhou. It’s the first machine in the company’s new medium-speed compact drive platform, a semi-direct drive that Mingyang says cuts component count by 60%.
And it is built for sites nobody used to bother with: mountains, plateaus, places where the wind averages four and a half meters per second. Now, Yolanda, 5 MW is pretty big for an onshore turbine in locations. It sounds like, you know, these locations, aside from the, like, less than ideal wind resource, also sounds like places where it’s actually, you know, transport might be a bit of a constraint.
I wonder what their strategy [00:20:00] is gonna be to get those large components and installation equipment in.
Yolanda Padron: Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s not gonna be the first site, I think, that we’ve seen that where they have to develop some sort of game-changing vessel or crane or something to be able to, to get things, uh, to the site.
Uh, my, my first thought honestly was just kind of like, “Oh goodness, that might be a lightning nightmare depending on, on where they’re located.”
Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, that’s true. Like we’ve seen in Japan, they have all their turbines on the ridges where the wind speeds are great, at least. Um, but they have been just absolutely destroyed by lightning, like really, really dealing with extreme situations.
I think also, like these are low wind speed sites. Like what, what did they say? Four and a half meters per second average wind speeds? I mean, that’s like half what you would consider a good, a good site, right? And we know that the power in wind, it goes, like it increases with the cube of wind [00:21:00] speed. So, um, you know, like if you double the wind speed, you get eight times as much power.
So it’s like all of the challenges associated with a high wind speed site in the mountains or, you know, somewhere tricky to get to you know, at least you’ve got eight times the power to make up for the effort of maintaining it. Uh, just it seems like, like a lot of effort to get to a low wind speed site, right?
I think these turbines, the cut-in wind speed is gonna be two and a half meters per second, so you know, again, like you can reduce your, yeah, like the, the wind speed a- again by another factor of eight. It’s almost nothing at that wind speed. It really, yeah, I don’t know that you can make up for a low wind speed site by having a really low cut-in wind speed, right?
Like, you’re still gonna end up with low power across the board.
Yolanda Padron: Yeah, and it’s, it’s strange too, I mean, we said it’s, it’s a mountainous region, right? And so, and the transportation [00:22:00] in itself, I mean, we talked about the idea of bringing them in is gonna be difficult. But I know that a lot of times we see a lot of blades that have issues down the line because of the transportation issues and because of the way that maybe they, they didn’t use the lifting points right, and there might be a lot more transportation issues or damages from transportation on the site if they come in and it’s a completely different terrain that they’re used to.
Uh, and teams have to build in a completely different terrain to- that- than they’re used to, then that might also cause problems down the line. Not to mention the idea that I know sometimes in sites where there’s already roads, uh, it, it, because of the position of the turbines, because of the, the way that things are, are mapped out in development and construction, sometimes it’s a, a hassle for operations to, to get the correct cranes or trucks or everything in there to do any sort of maintenance.
Uh, so [00:23:00] I can’t imagine in a place where it’s just really, really difficult to get to in general.
Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, and especially over the lifetime, you know, maintenance i- is gonna be such a challenge. So I think that it sounds like they’re aware of that because their emphasis with this new platform, dropping the component count by 60%, that’s a claim from Ming Yang that I haven’t seen the details of.
It seems highly implausible but, um, yeah, I would wanna look into that a bit more to believe it. But they also say that their new bearings and gearbox features lift reliability by 10%, so yeah, I think that that is going to make their job a little bit easier, but yeah, I don’t know if it’s enough that would make me wanna invest in a wind farm with a, what was the number?
Four and a half meters per second average wind speed. Seems marginal at best. So new machines for marginal sites built in China and priced to compete. Now let’s move [00:24:00] to Denmark, where the employment numbers show what that competition feels like from the other side. Back in a moment.
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Rosemary Barnes: Numbers out of Denmark tell two stories at once. Green Power Denmark counted [00:25:00] just under 110,000 full-time jobs across the Danish energy sector in 2025. That is up 1,526 positions or 1.4%, slightly ahead of Danish employment overall. That is the good news. Inside the wind sector, employment fell to 32,700, a drop of roughly 500.
Green Power Denmark blames international competition and unfavorable market conditions. Its chief economist calls the dip normal You know what, Yolanda? I think that if Denmark’s labor market is weak in the wind industry, there are many countries outside of Denmark that would wanna snap up that talent.
I know that my own company, Pardalote, is included in those numbers of people that would really like to have Danish talent. I’m trying to s- hire someone currently that’s got wind turbine blade expertise, and I tell you what, that is not easy to do in Australia. So I would say if there are any Danes listening or watching who fancy a move to Australia, then please do get in touch [00:26:00]if you have some excellent wind turbine blade experience.
Yolanda Padron: You guys would have a lovely, lovely boss. I’ve- I just gotta say that. The learnings that you have in Denmark and just the, the, the school- not just from the schooling, the, the onsite, I mean, it- it’s just historically Denmark’s been really, really great in, in wind. And there’s just so many bright minds, um, that d- I mean, if, if they can’t find a j- a job in Denmark, then I, I agree that there’s a lot of places in wind that if they’re, they’re okay with moving, they’ll, they’ll find a, a good spot that’ll receive them really happily.
Rosemary Barnes: I know it is a bit of a, like, a cultural blocker. Danes more than other nationalities that I know are, are really, um, I don’t wanna say attached, it makes it sound like not quite the word I’m looking for, but they, they do really appreciate the region that they’re from and, you know, family is so important to Danes, so not the easiest thing [00:27:00] to just say, “Just move to the other side of the world.”
But you know, I did it. It, it can be done and, uh, yeah, Australia is, has got very nice weather, especially at the moment. It’s, um, it’s gonna be… It’s been, like, in the high teens Celsius all this week, and this is, I’m in Canberra in still winter and, uh, yeah, like, on the weekend it’s gonna be 20 degrees. It’s, you know, normally 15 degrees is a really great one-off day in winter.
It was my birthday this week and in Denmark there is a, a saying or a, you know, a belief that if you have good weather on your birthday, then that means that you must have been really good all year. And the weather was just, like, unprecedentedly good for my birthday, um, yeah, for a winter day. So obviously I was very, very good this year.
Yolanda Padron: You’re a great person, and happy belated birthday.
Rosemary Barnes: Thank you. But it is something that I say every time we get another story about another Danish wind energy company that’s, you know, doing layoffs and, you know, I’m honestly surprised that it’s [00:28:00] only 500 fallen in wind energy. If you look at, like, even just the job losses at LM Wind Power alone, um, I think that it would be about that many, right?
And so there are obviously some other companies um, growing to absorb some of the job losses, ’cause for sure we’ve covered more than 500 job losses just on the show. But I know I always feel really sad, um, not just for the people involved who y- you know, probably love wind energy and wanted to work in that field, but I feel sad that, you know, this was such a strength for Denmark, their, their wind industry, that they had been, you know, developing this expertise since the ’70s, honestly.
Uh, really, really world leading and, uh, of course, like, globalization means that you can’t, like, stay siloed forever, and Denmark obviously also took advantage of that globalization to, you know, export. Wind industry was a huge export market for Denmark, and still is. Um, but I do, I, I just feel really bad at the companies that are losing, um, all of that, you know, institutional [00:29:00]knowledge and the really, really deep specialist knowledge.
It’s, um, yeah. Uh, and they’ll go on to, you know, bring new skills to other industries, but it just makes me sad. As a wind energy lover and, um, you know, somebody who has a lot of friends that work in wind industry in Denmark, I do feel, feel sad. And there are some of my old colleagues who are amazing, like, literally the best engineer that I ever worked with, an electrical engineer, it, it was not easy for him to find a new job in wind.
I’m actually not sure if he’s working in that industry now. And plenty of other, like, really, really talented engineers that have gone on to other, um, yeah, other different kinds of industries, and it just makes me a little bit sad.
Yolanda Padron: Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of people too that are com- And I agree, it’s sad.
It’s really sad. But I, there are a lot of people too, some friends that, uh, just, you know, started doing consulting on their own, and it’s, it’s good to see that they’re still in wind, you know? Because they’re, they, they’re so smart and they have so much knowledge of so many years in the industry that they bring to the table, um, [00:30:00] that, I mean, it, it might even work out better for them, right?
Because maybe now they’re not just wor- focusing on Denmark itself, and now they get to, to expand and do what they evidently love to do, uh, the, for clients around the world, which is really exciting.
Rosemary Barnes: Well, that wraps up another episode of the Uptime Wind Energy podcast, and my first as the primary host of the show, so let me know if you think I did a terrible job in the comments.
Comments boost engagement, make me look better. So if today’s discussion sparked any questions or ideas, we’d love to hear from you. Reach out to us on LinkedIn, and if you found value in today’s conversation, please leave us a review. It really helps other wind energy professionals discover the show. And don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode.
For Yolanda, and Matthew and Allen Hall in their absence, I’m Rosemary Barnes, and we’ll see you here next week on the Uptime Wind Energy [00:31:00] podcast.
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