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PEAK Wind Insights with Lene Hellstern
Lene Hellstern, director of engineering at PEAK Wind, discusses the critical importance of thorough technical, commercial, and financial due diligence before investing in wind farm projects. She shares insights from her 24 years of experience on how developers can avoid common pitfalls, manage risks, and build better relationships with turbine manufacturers to ensure more accurate power production estimates.
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Allen Hall: Wind farm developers often face a challenging reality. Projected power output doesn’t match actual performance. This gap can mean millions in lost revenue and unexpected challenges. This week we speak with Lene Hellstern director of engineering at PEAK Wind. With over 24 years of experience analyzing wind projects worldwide, Lene brings crucial insights about what developers need to know before investing millions in wind farm development.
This is a great interview. Stay tuned.
Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining Light on Wind Energy’s brightest innovators. This is the progress Powering tomorrow.
Allen Hall: Lene, welcome to the program.
Lene Hellstern: Good to be here.
Allen Hall: We’ve been wanting to talk to you for a long time. So I’m glad you’re on the podcast because your interaction with developers is remarkable and the process that you go through I think is eye-opening. ’cause I don’t see that process happening at all wind sites and in Europe I think it happens more commonly.
But in the United States not so much. Why or when developers not consulting experts like you before, they spend hundreds of millions of dollars. What is the problem with that?
Lene Hellstern: It actually, it does happen, but yeah, sometimes it don’t. And yeah, I might not be the right one of asking to ask this question.
Maybe you should ask them as well why don’t you do it? But I, so for some it’s it’s budget constraints, right? Because you’re a consultant and then they don’t immediately see, how this money that I’m paying the consultant, how does that convert into a gain? Profit. It could be seen as some loose and money just because they’re asking a lot of questions on technical stuff.
It could also be that they are unaware, many are more into the financial part of it. And they have this perception that it’s not needed, the the technical due diligence or the commercial due diligence as the financial, because it’s like buying a car. It is really not like buying a car.
So maybe that is, that’s the reason. And that they think, the wind always blows, so it’s gotta go the turbine. But that’s just not how this world.
Joel Saxum: Would it be fair to say that some of your customers have felt the pain or they’ve gotten burned and that’s why they’re there?
Lene Hellstern: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you also, we can ask a lot of questions in the process before you buy the turbines. And then we can cover a lot of risks and you can mitigate before everything falls apart. Right. And that gives them a really good advantage, right? They can cover their themself and take all kind of scenarios into consideration, right?
And you get a much, if you ask kindly to the OE em, you do get some answers and you get a better collaboration with the OEM. If you conduct these technical due diligence, if you yell and scream at them, it’s not gonna go well. No. Kill with kindness. That’s much better than threats.
And I want this, and demand that and just ask, right?
Allen Hall: So what are they missing? Generally, when you’re starting a due diligence and you’re walking into a new situation, what are the highlights that a general developer just doesn’t really think about that really needs expertise like yours?
Lene Hellstern: Oh, but they don’t know the consequences of the selections they do in this process.
There is a not lot of things, technical topics that you need to make a decision on what kind of leading its protection do you want? Of course the OEM is guiding you you also on, on various technical topic, but you also as an owner, have some requirements you want fulfill and sometimes they don’t, they’re not even aware of what is it that is important to me.
They don’t know, and then they don’t know the technical consequences that they make. How does that end up, if you, let’s say you, you can some people are not aware that turbines come with a design lifetime, but if you’re smart, you can actually run it longer. But if you prepare early.
Then it doesn’t cost so much to run it longer. And if you run the turbines for a longer time, the, your levelized cost of energy goes down. But they don’t know what they need to do technically and what they need to cover. Let’s say, I can give you an example. Without getting too nerdy. Let’s say that you need, you wanna run your wind farm long, but you know that in this area, in order to get that, the authorities are gonna ask for track record.
They’re gonna, they wanna see data throughout the years from your control monitoring system. But and you can provide that. Perhaps depending on if you, in the contract, made sure that you actually have access to the control monitoring system and that you can download the data because if you don’t have that in the contract and have that settled upfront, it’s gonna, either you won’t get it because it’s not your property, you haven’t made sure that you get it, or the OEM is gonna ask you for money.
So if you have that sorted out before then, if the authorities come and say, Hey, I wanna see the track record for your condition monitoring system, you don’t need to start paying for it. And you don’t need to start digging. And so that, that’s just one example that, where we can help them and say what is it you want?
We can also say what things is it you need to take into consideration?
Joel Saxum: Steer
Lene Hellstern: owner.
Joel Saxum: My question originally is, what percentage would you think your due diligence is commercial versus technical? But at the same time, I think that they fit together because the technical side of things will drive the commercial and the contract side of negotiation.
Lene Hellstern: Maybe it’s one third each. Financial, commercial, and technical.
Joel Saxum: That makes sense.
Lene Hellstern: And can you live with on route one? Yeah. But then it’s gonna, you’re gonna be in pain.
Joel Saxum: Yeah. I boil it down to say if I was building a house, and I think I can generally as a, this is my, me as a wind farm developer, I’m building a house and I generally know how to do everything.
However, I may not be an expert on the foundation, but I tried it myself and now 10 years down the line, I’ve got foundation issues. So while I could have done it, I, there was a lot of things I didn’t know specifically. So that’s when I would call someone like the peak team like you have, because you have the relationships with the OEMs, you know how to deal with them, you know the questions to ask.
You’ve been through these processes a ton of times. So you’re that subject matter expert. But can you focus a little bit and tell us how. The difference between having a good relationship with the OE em or a long standing one. ’cause I know when we were talking off air, you were saying, sometimes I walk into me and they go, oh, le, nice to see you.
Lene Hellstern: It’s a small world actually. And I’ve been in this industry for 20. Four years soon. I know I don’t look that old, but I have and people, go around and you don’t know when you’re meeting this person and then they sit on another side of the table, right? So always keep good relations.
Always ask nicely, give them your arguments because if they understand what you are gonna use the information. For then they are, they might be more willing to give it to you. Let’s take a an example. The failure rates, right? That they really don’t wanna give you that unless they understand what it is you they’re gonna use it for.
Or I would use it for and sometimes I tell ’em, okay, can I please have the failure rates for your main components? And they say, go, no. And I go, okay, that’s fine. But the problem here is then I am gonna guess them. And why not get it from you because. Then in my guessing I would, although I am getting pretty good at it, but I would put in, a, a sort of a risk, right?
So it, I’m automatically pumping it a little bit up, right? Because I’m not really sure, so I need to cover myself here. Where if I get it from the OM and they can tell me why did you come to this conclusion? And I can see, I can think, okay, this is, they’ve done a pretty good job.
They used, the background is God knows how many turbines, so this is, they’ve done their homework. I trust this. Then I, we can use it in our calculations. So that’s that’s and then you don’t get that from them if they don’t trust you and you started yelling and screaming at them.
And also, and when we have contract negotiations, you just you tell them, sometimes we don’t reach an agreement, but, all wanna have things signed at the end of the day. And and tell them why is it you are asking these questions instead of just demanding left and right.
Why is it a value to you? And then make them, give them the arguments for internally in their organization to make sure that you can actually have the information you need.
Allen Hall: Yeah. It, it puts PEAK Wind in a unique position here. And I want to dive into this a little bit deeper. So you’re walking into OEM, big powerful, OEM makes thousands of turbines, has a long service history to developer, which may have a long service history with this.
OE em or may not have any history at all with them. They’re, they may be completely new to the industry. That puts you in a really odd position that you have to navigate both of those conditions and try to get to a good conclusion like that. But PEAK Wind is the one to go do this. And because you bring a lot to the table.
And I’m just, I think we ought just step back for a minute and explain all the things you do when you’re in those discussions interacting between the OEM and the developer. What does that look like?
Lene Hellstern: So if we are in a due diligence, right? We have a of course we don’t almost say we don’t kiss until, right?
So there’s a we don’t say, oh yeah, listen, this client, this happened and this client, you don’t do that, right? Then we did. So we don’t do that. But we do know that there, and you can also see that in the press. There are certain platforms that have certain issues, right? And then we go in. And then let’s say that this OEM has had a history of issues with the cooling system.
And so then we ask questions on the cooling system in this technical due diligence, sometimes you’re lucky and you go to the OEM and you sit with them in meetings and say, and if you are back lucky. You always give them a list of what would I like as a consultant to hear about here?
So they have a chance to prepare, right? If you don’t do that, how on earth can they repair? So then you say, we know that for, that your platform has previous history issues here. So what how, what have you done to improve this? And can we be sure that the turbine is their client is buying, it’s actually taken into consideration, or you’re gonna do a retrofit later down the line?
Or because, the OEMs are not stupid, they will try and fix it. They’re good people so they don’t wanna put anything on the market with flaws and errors in it, right? So then they get mad customers. So that’s where we go in and we we try to see how, how big a risk is this now when you buy this platform and sometimes it’s not, and sometimes it is.
And then we need to find out what, so what are you gonna do? What can the client here expect?
Allen Hall: So you’re trying to understand what the risk is in terms of dollars, I assume, and that, or whatever the currency is at the location, trying to put some numbers to it to say this turbine’s gonna produce this amount of revenue, this turbine’s gonna produce that kind of revenue.
Or These are the problems you’re gonna have if it’s lifetime. You need to build that into your models. That has to be a real eye-opener for developers at times. Because I think a lot of times, like you’re saying, like they, they pick a turbine, they get focused on it, and they don’t realize what that means.
And I’m wondering do, does an operator. Developer changed the turbine they were gonna buy because of this interaction? Because you’re giving ’em some advice and saying maybe this may not be the right turbine for that space.
Lene Hellstern: Yeah. Sometimes they actually have to, right?
Because if the site suitability is completely off if it’s overloaded, then either you’re gonna be faced with extreme containment where you’re losing a lot of production and then, the business case just doesn’t hold water. So always have your site suitability. Everybody. I once heard someone say, yeah, there’s no business reason for site suitability.
Wow. That particular company now has a whole team of site suitability experts. But yes they learned one of the people that learned. But so you in your, in that if you have a good team you always have, you have a selection of turbines you find suitable for the site. And you have a layout.
If you’re smart, you have a layout that fits them all because then you don’t need to wiggle them around all the time, which is not fun because depending on what country you are, wherever you are in the world, there are different permitting procedures, right? So I have destroyed, or I have didn’t destroy, but that was working for an OEM.
But I have actually not well, they. They got the wind direction wrong, so they spaced them too tight. Yeah, so I found that there was an offset on the wind direction and I could say. Yeah you gotta do it. I could do a new sign layout out for you. Or you gotta do it yourself because you you spaced the turbines too tight.
Then they would get overloaded and then they came back and said, yeah, we’re scrapping the project because the, it’s gonna take us five to eight years to get a new permit. So you could, I, to some degree killed it, but. It wasn’t my fault, I would say. And so you wanna have your spacing, right? And then you can’t know what turbines you’re gonna be buying, right?
Because when you do the layout, you are five minutes before. But if you are nice to the OEMs, you’ll know. What’s coming up
Allen Hall: when you get into these discussions between the OEM and the developer and the pieces that they’re typically missing are related to operational losses, clearly and loads. Those are two things they haven’t thought about, and they assume that the OEM has ’em all figured out.
How do you step into that discussion and try to navigate that?
Lene Hellstern: But the OEM you need to have your wind resource assessment done a lot earlier. Be way before you contact OEM and you need to do wind, you need to do production estimates on several different kind of turbines to find out which one is best.
You also need to know about site suitability because you, if you are in complex terrain. Like a mountain or you have forestry, then you need to know what does it do to your turbine? How tight can you space it? So you need to have a prop and you always have site limit limitations part. If it’s flat land in Texas, then you have, I.
Huge sites, right? And also if you have neighboring wind farms. So all of these things need to be mapped out and then you need to look at what is the design of the turbines. And you don’t actually start contacting your, the OEM before you could do it if you have good connection, but you can also, have a tinder and but you don’t.
And OEMs. Calculate, and I’m not saying they’re wrong because then some of them are gonna call me. They calculate when resource assessment on one in one way, and then you would want it in another way. And the reason that the OEMs and without, I’m gonna try not put to put too many words in their mouth for them it is okay if the production is overestimated.
Because that for them, that is just, they just put high loads on the turbines and then they are sure that the turbine is sighted for or suitable for site. And also the OEM does not take account all your other losses. They only take the turbine, they. They don’t take grid losses into consideration. They don’t take substation.
All of these, the losses you have, they don’t take that into consideration because they sometimes, they don’t often know what it is, right? What they’re selling you, the turbine, they are not selling you the grid access.
Joel Saxum: Are they doing that because they’re assuming, basically it’s a horse, a piece, like if you put this turbine in or that turbine in, or that turbine in all of the grid losses and things behind the turbine.
Are equal based on what? It doesn’t matter what turbine you install. Is that why they assume that? Or are they just saying this is our technology, so this is the one that we can do?
Lene Hellstern: No, it’s just this. Yeah, they’re just, this is what we sell you. This is what we know about. Then they, if they started calculating on all other things, then they’re giving you a free service.
Right. That someone else in the market is already, I completely understand it. I’m not criticizing it. They sell a turbine. They sell a power curve on the certain condition conditions, but that’s what they sell.
Allen Hall: That’s the number one complaint in the United States though, is that the power that was predicted from the farm.
Is higher than what actually happens by a several percentage points. Sometimes I’ve heard double digits. At times it seems completely unreasonable. You should not have double digit errors in that calculation. But is that just because they haven’t done a system assessment to the level like PEAK Wind would do to.
Put all your losses in there and tell you what you can deliver to the transmission lines.
Lene Hellstern: First of all, nobody is interested in the right numbers because the people that are developing this is only interested in a high number ’cause that is a greater likelihood of success. I used to be very annoyed about this, but after 24 years, I’m like, yeah, so this, they nobody’s interested in the real number, right?
They want a high number so they can make sure that this pro project is gonna happen. So also it also internally within the, when I worked a lot with wind resource assessment, I would always get complaints. It would be you, it should be nine meters per second. No, but it’s not.
We’ve studied it. We analyzed it, we deducted everything. Your average wind speed is 8.5 just per second. Yeah. But it should be nine. No. Or, why are you giving it such a high grid loss? Because the grid’s gonna be congested. We are, look, we are looking at 25 years. It is already starting.
They’re starting to contain, there is no plan of building out the grid anytime soon. It’ll be worse. Your grid containment. So I’m not gonna tell you don’t have anything because you will. Always, I also worked as a developer. You, if you wanna not please anyone, go into wind resource assessment and production estimates, because they’re always gonna be unhappy.
Joel Saxum: Okay. So you’re, you guys operate your course at Danish company, but you’ve done projects all over the world in the states, in Europe, offshore, onshore. Great. So do you see a difference in where the demand is coming from your services? Say. Is it partially coming from the fin financiers of the projects?
The insurers? Or is it purely developers, or is that geographically dependent?
Lene Hellstern: We have a lot of different clients, so we don’t believe in putting all the eggs in one basket, so we have financial institution that are looking to acquire a part of a offshore wind farm somewhere in the world. We have developers.
That they are looking they wanna develop projects or they wanna sell them. We have utilities. It, it’s different, right? It’s also some have the the capacity to do this kind of work. Others have already done it, but they want a third pair of eyes, right? So that’s fair enough.
And then, we try, we, of course, I’m not, I’m gonna get so hammered if I say we don’t try and please anyone. We always try to please our clients, but we also try to be honest and say, this, the production estimates, you have forgotten this, and that. Or you, there, there are some gray areas here that you’ve gotta make a guess.
I, and your guess is a bit too low. If you take these things into consideration so it can be a lot of different clients and that’s the beauty of being a consultant. ’cause I’ve been an OEM, I’ve been a developer, I’ve been working for utility. But as a consultant you, it’s, and then you try and find out what is it they want?
What do they need? Um, and then we try and help them and please them. But we also try to be honest so they understand what is they’re venturing into. Then they can make the right, we dress ’em up so they make the right decisions, right? Make them aware of the risks.
Allen Hall: So that honesty is why you would get a hold of PEAK Wind because you’d rather know now and get an outside independent assessment before you spent the a hundred, 200, 400, $500 million on a project and then learn afterwards that, lene was right. You want to know that upfront because she does know what she’s talking about. She does. However, that history and PEAK Wind is full of people like that, that know wind and know where the problems lie and can give you that information upfront in a project. And that’s why we, that’s why we had Lene on today is because she’s just so full of knowledge and experience and there’s a lot of developers that don’t have that.
And it’s hard to find it lene, how do people get ahold of PEAK Wind and get you on board to help them through this process?
Lene Hellstern: You just call us. We’ll help you but we won’t, we won’t always say what you wanna hear, but we will say what you need to hear. Yeah, it’s so you just contact us.
We, we are on LinkedIn. We have a webpage. Yeah. Just reach out.
Allen Hall: The website is peak-wind.com and PEAK Wind is based in Denmark. Adjust accordingly on your two time zone and the US Exactly.
Lene Hellstern: And Korea, Taiwan, uk I forget someone. Yeah. Yeah. Hamburg, Germany. Two places in Denmark. Yeah. Yes. So we are very much global.
We are like 211 currently. And it’s not just leaning. Who’s doing this work, but they, I have a whole army of good people behind me helping with this. ’cause I am not the specialist on everything. We pull in the specialist on the, on different topics like whether it’s components. And I am not the specialist on commercial or financial.
I’m the director of engineering, so I that’s my area. And then. I pull in my people on the different specialist topics, and we would love to help.
Allen Hall: Having those talented people in one place is what you’re paying for, and that’s why PEAK Wind is so important to the industry. So reach out to PEAK Wind and you can just go to the website, it’s PEAK-Wind.com.
You can find Lene on LinkedIn and contact her and she’ll get you started. But the honesty is. Part of the equation. And Lene, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Great guest. We love to have you back on, so you’re always welcome to come back onto the podcast.
Lene Hellstern: Sure. This was super fun. I just hope somebody got smarter by listening to this.
https://weatherguardwind.com/peak-wind-insights-with-lene-hellstern/
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Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes’ YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!
Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining Light on Wind. Energy’s brightest innovators. This is the Progress Powering tomorrow.
Allen Hall: Alex, welcome to the show.
Alex Øbell Nielsen: Thank you. Good to be on the show.
Allen Hall: You’ve been in wind about 20 years, and, uh, when we had talked a couple of weeks ago now, uh, you were highlighting some of the challenges that exist in wind energy, especially on the training side. What are those challenges? What do you see as, uh, Danish Wind Power Academy as challenges out in the world
Alex Øbell Nielsen: from a training provider perspective?
Uh, of course, uh, the. The, the great demand for technicians, not only now, but also in the future, and not having a formal training, if you like, for wind turbine technicians. Um, we see that as a challenge. Uh, but of course it’s also an opportunity for us as a training provider. [00:01:00] Um, but, um, I mean, as you mentioned, Danish Wind Power Academy has delivered training for more than 20 years.
Uh, we do so globally, um, headquartered in Denmark, but, um. Before I, you know, deep dive into all our, our trainings, uh, as an example, we deliver troubleshooting training. Uh, a lot of customers are asking for that, but we quickly learned that many of the participants didn’t have the skillset to enter or join a troubleshooting training.
So what we begun doing two and a half years ago is to assess, uh, technicians before they actually go on one of our trainings to make sure that they have the right skillset. From that, then we’ve learned, uh, assessing more than I think 1500, maybe two, uh, yeah, more than 1500 technicians. Now that we see two or or more challenges.
One is hydraulics. They always score low on hydraulics and the others and controls where they also score low. So those are some of the challenges we see and we do [00:02:00] these assessments globally
Joel Saxum: and I think that’s an important point there globally, right? Because Danish Wind Power Academy of course, like when you think wind, you think the Danes, right?
The Danes know what they’re doing, right? Uh, we’re, we’re over here on uh, wind sites in the US all the time and they’re like, yeah, some Danish guy was here last week fixing this. Like that happens all the time. But I, I, I wanna focus on that a little bit, saying like, we talk about, okay. The, the, the, the podcast here, of course, we’re based in the states.
You can hear it by our voices, but we cover things globally, right? So we cover from the eu what’s going on offshore, onshore, India, Australia, apac, down in Brazil, Mexico, you name it. We’re, we’re covering it. We’re talking to people. The, the tech, the global technician problem in wind. Is not localized. It is everywhere.
It doesn’t matter what locale you’re in, where there’s wind turbines, there is a shortage of qualified, trained, and good people. And I think, um, kudos to you guys for, you know, exporting your knowledge around the world. But that’s something to focus on here, is that this [00:03:00] is a global issue and you guys are working to solve that.
Alex Øbell Nielsen: We try to at least, but, but as you said, it is global and we have done these assessments, uh, globally in 2024. We delivered training in more than 19 countries. Uh, the assessments we’ve done for technicians that work both in North North America, uh, Europe and, and, and the APAC region. Uh, so, so we do get, uh, you know, uh, assessments from around the world, uh, covering all these technicians and yeah, repeating myself, hydraulics and controls are big challenges for sure.
Joel Saxum: What’s the, what’s the best region? Who’s got the best text?
Alex Øbell Nielsen: Yeah, it, I’m not gonna go into that. What I can say though is that, uh, I mean, just briefly the assessment, it’s one hour. We ask 40 questions, uh, and, uh, whoever participates has a link where they, they can spend this one hour. We asked 40 questions within hydraulics, controls, mechanics, and electrics.
Uh, and, and based on this, uh, we do see some patterns, uh, also on we ask how many years of, uh, industry [00:04:00] experience do these participants have? And, and funnily enough, or maybe not, uh, but those, uh, with more than 15 years experience score the lowest. So, and there could be a wide range of, uh, reasons for that, but they score the lowest.
Uh, usually we see the technicians that have between two and four years experience. They score the best. So, so we, we, we can see, and I’m sure we can deep dive into the regions, but I don’t have those numbers in front of me, so, um, maybe not, but what I can say is it’s the same challenge. It doesn’t matter North America, Europe, far east.
Hydraulics and controls.
Allen Hall: So what are some of the real world consequences when, uh, wind farm operators don’t invest in training for their people?
Alex Øbell Nielsen: I’m sure there are multiple, but at least from our point of view, what we want to do is help asset owners improve performance of their turbines, of their wind farms, and we believe you can do so by training.
And we have data to back that up, that between. Point four and one [00:05:00]point per, uh, 2%, uh, uh, performance increase you can expect from following training. And, and what we do is that we, um, we look at performance data before we enter training. We provide training over X amount of time. Uh, and then of course we look at performance data from the wind farms following the training, and we can see a drop in again, let’s say it’s hydraulics or any other.
Areas that we’ve focused on, and then we can see an increase in performance. So I think as an asset owner, you want performance out of your turbines, out of your assets, and, and if you do not train your technicians, if they don’t have the right skills, um, yeah, then you, then you potentially will lack performance and.
I also think there’s a lot of talk about troubleshooting being a good troubleshooter, which is great, but in our point of view, maintenance is where you need to excel. If you’re good at maintaining your turbines, if you’re good at maintaining your assets, then you will require less troubleshooting, of course.
[00:06:00] So maintenance is very much where we would like to focus. So if you’re good at that. You have less spare parts consumptions. You spend less downtime if you have, uh, malfunctions or what whatnot and whatnot on your turbine, and then you increase performance away.
Joel Saxum: I think that’s something that Alan and I both, we talk about regularly and we can get on board with, and we want to talk to the uptime listeners and the uptime family uptime network about this back your business up with a good business case.
And that’s what Danish Wind Power Academy has done here, right? They’ve taken the performance data, looked at training, and then showed the increase, boom, business case built. Uh, I love to hear that and I know a Alan does too. ’cause we, we harp on people about that all the time.
Allen Hall: Well, there’s an performance improvement aspect, right?
That you can get the turbines operating, uh, more efficiently and have more uptime. There’s also, I think what I see a lot of times in the United States is you don’t see the, uh, ohs and the cost of the U lows. A hydraulic lines are [00:07:00] leaking down all over the place onto the tower, right? So now you gotta clean up, you gotta do the same thing for like, uh, some pitch motors or hydraulic pitch motors where there’s just hydraulic fluid down the blade.
Uh, and some of the more. Catastrophic ones. If you can get more uptime, yes, but there’s also stopping some of the more expensive downtime events that occur because of maintenance issues.
Alex Øbell Nielsen: Exactly.
Allen Hall: From a training standpoint, then you’re going deep into how turbines operate and there is that quiz or test that you provide to potential trainees before you get into the the details of training.
I am not sure that we have seen a lot of that in the United States at all. Uh, like if you have basic, fundamental skills, you know how to repair cars, you’ve, you’ve welded before, you’ve played around in hydraulics in a previous job. That usually is the qualifications to get started in the United States, but that doesn’t really trend out too well as you [00:08:00] get further down the line because wind turbines 10 years ago, pretty standard.
You can move between turbines. I think today when we’re talking about. Six and seven megawatts being the platforms. Those turbine are a lot more complicated than 10 years ago. And the challenges that brings to technicians and maybe wanna explain. How much more a technician needs to know now than even maybe even five years ago.
Alex Øbell Nielsen: Yeah, uh, for sure. And yes, the, the machines are getting bigger and they’re definitely getting more complicated as well. Um, I have a commercial background, so I can’t go into, uh, specific details, but what I can tell you is that the course curriculum that we develop over time is getting. Uh, just by the number of pages they need to go through.
Um, on the latest, uh, eight megawatt turbine that we’ve developed training for is an offshore turbine. They need to go through, uh, just over 400 pages in one week. So if they don’t have the fundamentals to [00:09:00] go into that training, then uh, then, uh, yeah, then, then they fall behind. Right? And we don’t want that.
Joel Saxum: You’re gonna struggle.
Alex Øbell Nielsen: But we know these technicians, right? They are used to working outside, uh, up in the l you know, outdoors. And for him, for them to sit in a classroom for, for a full week can be a challenge of course. So we as a training provider also invest a lot of. Time and money and, uh, in, in our trainers, putting them through Train the Trainer program so they can actually share this knowledge and knowhow that they have.
And, and we try to, for all our trainings, have more than 50%, uh, in the training as as active teaching methods. So where the delegates or the participants. Are taking part of the training so we’re not just using PowerPoint slides and whatnot. Um, we spend a lot of time and focus on that because just for, you know, having an engagement from the participants, but also for learning retention.
We know that if they are part of the training, then they will remember and then they can actually start using these, [00:10:00] uh, the, the learning when they go back and work on these turbines.
Joel Saxum: I think too much industrial training, and this is wind, you name it, whatever. Is delivered by PowerPoint. It’s delivered by stuff that bores people sit in a classroom for eight hours and that’s, I mean, regardless of who’s sitting in there.
Like, if you’re not, if that’s not your normal job to digest this stuff, like it, it doesn’t soak in, it doesn’t take like, it’s kind of, eh, you check the box. Yeah. You might have that certificate, you might have that training. I mean, I, I’ve learned from people, I’ve seen this happen. I saw this happen last summer.
Someone who went to lotto training for a week. And on left there on Friday on a plane, showed up on site on Monday and couldn’t lotto the turbine like that. What’s the point? Right? And that what it was is they sat in the classroom for how many days in a row learning this theory, uh, and not actually activating it.
That, and that that’s a problem. Right. And I, but I think that, so, so, but Danish Wind Power Academy, you guys focusing on, hey, as a use case, right. Alan and Joel, uh, wind Farm Company, we have just bought a [00:11:00] Siemens G Mesa, G nine x site. Hey, Danish Wind Power Academy. Can you send someone here and get these, these guys up to speed on everything that you know about the G nine X platform?
Is that, is that, is that the calls you get?
Alex Øbell Nielsen: Yeah, it is for sure. Um, we are very, um, uh, we have outlined a pathway that we use, uh, and where we start with the assessment and get an understanding of, of the, of the skills and, and, and lack of skills or lack of competencies from the technicians. And from that, we can build an individual training plan for each of them.
So depending on how you want to put your team together, uh, and then, uh, following this pathway, I mean the, the, the beginning of it is, is generic. It’s theory where we either come to you and sit in a meeting room or in a classroom or actually use one of our studios. I’m standing in one of our studios now.
But then when once we pass that and the technicians have the fundamentals in place, that they have passed the assessment there. Then we deep dive into specific turbines, and that could be very specific turbines from GE or [00:12:00]Siemen esa or vistas, uh, and, and a wide range of other turbines. And, and we can do so because we have a good collaboration with asset owners, of course, that, that own these turbines.
Um, and, and our trainers on average have 17 years experience from the industry. So not only are they various skills, I mean, they’ve done this for many years, um, but again. Coming back to our own Train the Trainer program where we teach them how to teach, uh, basic skills as using whiteboards or overhead, uh, what do you call ’em, flip over charts and whatnot.
And also having their participants being engaged and spent, you know, more than 50% in the training being active. Um, so, so yes, if you have a specific GE turbine, we can come train your technician and. We’re not biased either, so we tell it as we see it
Allen Hall: in the training program, it does seem like there’s a little bit of feedback of what’s happening in the field and some of the issues that are occurring on particular [00:13:00] turbines do get incorporated into your training because it’s gonna be a routine issue for technicians to, to manage that.
I, I don’t see that in a lot of training programs. They’re very specific. They’re coming. Coming right from the book from GE or Vestas, like This is how you operate the turbine. Anything that’s outside of that isn’t covered. But the vast majority of the time that I’ve seen, they’re dealing with the outside of the textbook problems.
How do you incorporate that into your training? Is that just because you have so many people with a lot of experience in the field that are coming back and are really tied to industry? Is that the differentiator? Maybe. And maybe,
Alex Øbell Nielsen: I, I, I, I think I thank you for the question and, and it, the way we, we approach training is that, um, if you are looking for maintenance or let’s say troubleshooting on a specific turbine, then we would ask our customer for the performance data.
Over the past 12 months. Then we look at the 10 most common faults and issues they have on these turbines. And that varies from, of course, turbine, from turbine, but also wind farm and so on. And then we incorporate that, those [00:14:00] faults and issues into the training. And when we deliver maintenance training or troubleshooting, then we come to you, we come to our client, uh, day one, and day two is usually in a classroom.
And then day two or three and four is in the turbine itself. So not only are we working with the faults and issues that they. They work on a daily basis on this wind farm, but we actually train them on them as well, so they improve performance of these assets
Allen Hall: with the training happening on site. Then they’re actually debugging or learning hands on onto their particular turbines, which I think is remarkable because a lot of times, as Joel’s pointed out, a lot of this training happens.
Maybe I Schenectady, where there’s not a lot of turbines, honestly, or onsite for some of the OEMs where they’re not near a turbine. Danish Wind Power Academy has flipped this model where you are on site training the folks on site with their own turbines, with their own problems. That has gotta have a [00:15:00] remarkable return on investment,
Alex Øbell Nielsen: and it shows, as I said before, between 0.4 and 1 performance increase. We see that on these wind farms. and, the training we’re delivering is not compliant, so our customers come to us because they see value in what we deliver and this approach. is, definitely maybe a different approach. We don’t see many out there doing the, same, and we don’t have training centers.
we have offices and studios like this where we can do some online training if needed. But other than that, we always come to our customers, again, just repeating myself, but using their nacelles their turbines, where we also deliver part of the training. we believe that hands-on approach is much better for learning retention. and, we’ve done it for more than 20 years now, and, have a profitable business, so we know it’s working. Of course.
Joel Saxum: Alex, I’ve gotta ask you a question about value here. and because this is what’s coming into my, head, is [00:16:00] the value that you guys can provide for clients in training, training on site.
Like, to me, that’s, I’d pay for that all day. Boom. Done. However you guys are training for 20 years understanding the serial problems that may not be in the notebook, in the maintenance manual from the OEM and all these different things. You, you, I think you rest on the capability of having a ton of really smart troubleshooters maintenance people as your trainers.
Do you ever get people that call and say, Hey, we’ve got this problem out here. Can you help us solve the problem?
Alex Øbell Nielsen: Yeah, we do that and we do, we get those questions. Um, and, and we stick to the business of training. So, so if, if you are looking at the installation, quality inspection or in the warranty, uh, that all is also training that we provide.
So, so, so we want to be the, the, the training provider. So, but again, if you have bought X amount of turbines, they’re coming out of warranty. How can you [00:17:00] challenge the OEM, uh, on, on what they are telling you? If you do not have that expertise in house, we can, we also have trainings to, to, to, to mitigate that challenge for these asset owners.
So again, if you’re coming, if you’re looking, you know, at an end warranty. Or if it’s the before that with installation, we also have trading programs to, to cover those areas as well. So we, we put our customers in a much, you know, better position to ask the OEM, the right questions and to make sure that they hand over the turbines in the best possible condition to them.
Of course.
Joel Saxum: Yeah. You’re, you’re enabling success at that, at that level. Right. So. Like you answered my question there is instead of sending out, for lack of a better term, sending out mercenaries to figure out problems, you’re sending them out to team, to team up with the actual operator or the asset owner, the whoever that may be.
Maybe it’s an ISP, I don’t know.
Alex Øbell Nielsen: We teach a utility company or an asset owner on how to do it yourself. Right. That’s, that’s the method we prefer. I mean, again, our, our trainers with this, uh, long [00:18:00] experience could do the work, but that’s not why we are here. We are here to train. Our customers so they can do the work themselves.
Allen Hall: So who are your typical clients and when do they tend to call you in the lifetime of their wind farm?
Alex Øbell Nielsen: I would say 80% of our clients are asset owners. So the big utility companies, those that are out of a service agreement within OEM, there is usually, that’s where we provide most of our business. So if you are looking at a brand new offshore turbine on the US East Coast.
That’s not us. We usually come in after they’re out of these service agreements. So, um, so, so those are typically our customers. Um, we do work with ISPs, um, um, but often they tend to stick to the training matrix they get from an OEM. But we do see some variations in the us, uh, with EPCs and ISPs where we get more work there than we do in Europe.
And I think it’s the nature of business in the us. Uh, but I would say roughly 80% is with asset owners, has
Allen Hall: a change in the IRA bill. Increase the [00:19:00] number of phone calls that you’re getting just because the repowering may be limited. So if a wind farm that’s five years old that they’re planning to take to 10, and then repower now has to live to 20 to 25 years old.
Is that changing the marketplace for the, for training like yours?
Alex Øbell Nielsen: We haven’t seen that impact yet. Uh, there may be, uh, an impact on our business, but we, we expect not to. We are still a small company, so for us it’s still a big world out there. So, so we see opportunities in that. And if it’s in, in Repowering or any other projects, I mean, we definitely see some opportunities there.
These turbines are, you know, they, they will operate for 20, maybe 30 years. Uh, and, and they continue to want to get the most out of these assets. And, and, uh, I’m certain we can, uh, help our customers and improve that. Not only, you know, asset performance, but also another subject that we didn’t really cover is retention of your technicians.
Uh, we see a lot of movement from technicians moving from maybe one ISP to another, but we truly believe that if you, if you invest in your. [00:20:00]Technicians, they get better at what they do. They get a greater job satisfaction. I mean, then, then we see that they want to stay as well. Of course. So, so that’s another, uh, you know, I mean, that goes for me as well.
I continuously want to learn and be better at what I do. And if my company is investing me, great. I mean, I, I want to give back on that, of course. But, uh, but for now, we don’t see an impact on the IRA for us.
Joel Saxum: Well, one of, one of the things I think we’ll we’re gonna start to see here in the US because of this, is you’re going to see, there’s a, there’s an ISP boom right now, right?
Like if you’re an ISP and you’re established, like you’re, you’ve got requests coming in the door left and right, and we’ve heard this across the market just ’cause of what’s happening. Um, so you’re going to see, like I know right now there’s multiple competitive RFPs out in the US world for ISPs to come and run wind farms.
So if I’m doing that, if I am again, Joel, Joel and Alan Wind, ISP, and I’m in a competitive [00:21:00] RFP for a couple of wind farms for an operator, and I know what technology’s on those, of course I do. I’m gonna include this in my bid. I’m gonna say, Hey, if we, if we’re awarded this bid, we’re bringing DWPA in here, we’re training up our guys and we’re gonna come in there day one with some of the best knowledge in the industry to make sure that this thing is running at a high, at peak performance.
Uh, because when you do have technicians shifting around and new, because it’s always gonna be new people, right? That happens even at the OEMs, the new, new people going from Wind Farm to wind farm. If you can go in there and say, here’s, here’s our competitive edge. This is our value add to you guys. I’m bringing in some of the best to train our people up.
I would be doing that and, and, and the same, at the same course. If I’m an O operator in the United States and I’m starting to take over from some of the OEM FSAs and I’m looking at this timeline going, you know what? PTCs are running out. Uh, I need to make sure that I’m running at peak performance on this wind farm.
[00:22:00] What are some levers I can pull? Um, Alan and I’ve talked about this for the last two months, right? Since this stuff’s been shaken out in the states. Well, he, there’s certain things, there’s hardware you can add to your blades. There’s CMS things you can do here. There’s digitization strategies. However, a foundational thing is make sure the guys and the ladies in the field know what the hell they’re doing to make sure these things are running right.
So to me that is, um, you know. That would be a, a lever I would pull, I would be calling it the Danish Wind Power Academy.
Alex Øbell Nielsen: And, and we are working with ISPs and asset owners where we provide training to both their crews. And we know they have won business with asset owners because they, because they’ve done training with us because.
I believe it’s because they’ve done it with us, of course, but they actually went to the asset owner, the utility, and said, we know our technicians don’t have the right skillset. We have a system with Danish Wind Power Academy. We are putting them on a training pathway, uh, with Danish Wind Power Academy on this specific turbine that we want to.
Service and [00:23:00] maintain on your behalf. And that was one of the reasons why they won the bid. So if they are moving in that direction, that is definitely something we, uh, we can help ISPs with. And as you mentioned before, with asset owners, when they’re stepping out, if they want to operate on their own and not on operate under a service agreement within an OEM.
We also have the right tools to help them with the end of warranty and also training their technicians so they have the right skillset to maintain these turbines. I’m really impressed by this
Allen Hall: because this doesn’t really exist all that often in terms of training. If you have to get specific training on a turbine, you’re essentially calling the OEM and begging to have that happen.
And we don’t have time to do that. They’re not in the business of doing that globally at the scale that is needed at the minute. And, and that’s where the Danish Wind Power Academy comes in.
Joel Saxum: If you’re, if you’re calling the OEM for support, the problem they, they’re gonna run into there is they, they don’t have enough bandwidth to even train their own people, let alone bring others in and get them up to [00:24:00]speed.
And, and at the end of the day. The, the things that Danish Wind Power Academy has uncovered about specific models through experience, through field trials, through, you know, time soaking in, in, out, in production. The OEM isn’t gonna give you that. They’re not gonna, they’re not gonna lift the bonnet on the problems that they know are serial problems with these machines.
Which, like we, we hear about, we know about like after a while, people, but you guys are the aggregate of that, right? So you’re aggregating this specific model X, y, Z from X 1, 2, 3, OEM, from around the world. All the knowledge that you’ve gained there, boom. Now it’s in a package to deliver to.
Alex Øbell Nielsen: Exactly. Exactly.
And also, I mean, from previous meetings in, in Japan, it could have been anywhere speaking with the utility or an asset owner. Um, they wanted to go in and, and self perform on their assets. Uh, but the OEM would not teach them how to troubleshoot. And the challenge they then had was that the lender would ask them questions on, but if you can’t troubleshoot your own turbines.[00:25:00]
I, I, I, you are putting us in a difficult position as lender. Right. So then they had an opportunity to work with us and they, they had a, they had a, a means to overcome that challenge. Of course. What countries have you trained in, Alex? So again, far east, uh, Japan, Taiwan, Australia, uh, quite a bit. Um, New Zealand.
Um, we’ve been to Sri Lanka of all places. We didn’t see that coming. Um, of course, uh, most of the countries in Europe, uh, north America, and then we also get requests from South America. Again, we are a fairly small company, so, so we focus our efforts on, on, on Europe, north America, and Far East. I mean, we are headquartered in Denmark, but we do have offices in Italy and Portugal.
We are also in Atlanta and the us So that’s from where we sort of cover, uh, cover, you know, a big world of, of wind turbines.
Allen Hall: If you’re an experienced trainer, how do you reach out to the Danage Wind Power Academy?
Alex Øbell Nielsen: Go on our website. But again, I mean, um, the, [00:26:00]the network is pretty big. I mean, of course our, our trainers come from the industry, right?
And they’ve done it for many years, so they know a lot of people in the industry. And, and I think it takes a, a special mindset to, to step out of this, uh, technician role where you are a troubleshooter or a commissioner and you’re very good at what you do. But I think the guys and girls we have as trainers, they really enjoy standing in front of a classroom and, and sharing their knowledge and, and, and, and, and having a good conversation with the participants and then, you know, come back to them.
I mean, uh, a lot of our clients have the, the same trainer coming back, you know, with three or six months in between and they pick up that conversation and I know they really enjoy that. So, so if you like to. Teach or be a teacher and share your knowledge, uh, we’re a good place to be and you will have to like to travel as well.
So, but I think most of the guys and girls in the industry, I mean, they’re traveling as it is anyways.
Allen Hall: And if you’re an operator anywhere around the world and you want to train up your group of technicians and local [00:27:00] experts. How do they get ahold of Danish Wind Power Academy? How do they find you? Danish wpa.com.
Alex Øbell Nielsen: That’s our website.
Allen Hall: Thanks Alex for being on the podcast. And if you wanna reach out to the Danish Wind Power Academy, go to the website, danish wpa.com, or you can find them on LinkedIn. Just look up Danish Wind Power Academy. Alex, thank you so much for being on the program.
Alex Øbell Nielsen: Love having you on. Thank you for inviting me and, uh, I’m happy to share about what we do and, and, and thanks a lot.
https://weatherguardwind.com/danish-wind-power-academy/
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