In 2024, 91% of new large-scale renewable projects around the world made electricity for less money than any fossil-fuel option, according to the International Renewable Energy Agency. Solar power was 41% cheaper than the lowest-cost fossil fuel, and onshore wind was 53% cheaper. The technology that can lower energy bills, keep the grid stable, and create jobs is now the most affordable way to build power almost anywhere. So, here’s the big question our guest faces every day: if clean energy is this good and this affordable, why is it still so tough to get people to support it? Leah Qusba leads GoodPower, a nonprofit focused on strategic communications and research. For almost twenty years, it was known as Action for the Climate Emergency, but it changed its name during Climate Week 2025. Since Leah took over, the group has grown about ten times bigger, built a network of over 8,500 content creators who share facts about renewables, and started running live messaging tests through its Good Data Lab. The new name highlights that renewable power is good power, and the best way to win support is by showing how it affects people’s monthly bills. The decision to rebrand was based on data. Leah’s team learned that words like “climate” and “emergency” can shut down conversations in rural, conservative areas where most new wind and solar projects are built. GoodPower shifted its message to focus on jobs, community investment, and steady power bills.

GoodPower also works to fight anti-renewables disinformation, which Leah says spreads fastest in the first day or two after a grid emergency. When Winter Storm Fern knocked out power in more than 20 states in January, the organization had a few days’ notice and quickly got its creator network ready to “prebunk” the usual claim that renewables caused the blackouts. This strategy, based on the Debunking Handbook, starts with the truth, points out the false claim, and then repeats the truth to make it stick. GoodPower uses the same idea in its AI tools: CleanCast predicts where local fights over new projects might start so communities can get accurate information early, and TrueVoice spots AI-generated comments in public records. Still, Leah says the best messengers are neighbors, since people trust those who share their experiences. For instance, when Boulder City, Nevada’s Republican mayor, Joe Hardy, talks about how solar and storage helped his town’s budget, it connects with other conservative communities in a way ads can’t.
GoodPower’s network of creators shares clean-energy messages through car-repair, food, and gaming videos. Leah calls this the raisin bread theory: the regular content is the bread, and the renewables message is the raisin. For communities already dealing with climate impacts, she highlights groups like Extreme Weather Survivors, which gives wildfire and flood survivors a way to push for policy changes from the ground up.
To learn more, visit goodpower.org and follow Leah Qusba on LinkedIn, where she is active and easy to reach.
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Interview Transcript
Mitch Ratcliffe 0:10
Hello! Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are on this beautiful planet of ours. Welcome to Sustainability In Your Ear. This is the podcast conversation about accelerating the transition to a sustainable, carbon-neutral society. And I’m your host, Mitch Ratcliffe. Thanks for joining the conversation today. Let’s talk about accelerating that shift to renewables in detail.
The technology to lower our energy bills, build a more secure grid, and create millions of jobs already exists. Renewables are now the cheapest and fastest power to deploy almost anywhere on the planet, so here’s the puzzle my guest today wrestles with every single day. If the solutions are this good and this affordable, why is it so hard to build public support for them?
Part of the answer is that we’re trying to make the case for sustainable technologies in an openly hostile environment. Federal climate policy has been rolled back, and there are coordinated disinformation campaigns ready to blame wind and solar within hours of any grid emergency, whether or not the facts support those accusations. And the social platforms where most people get their information will quietly bury anything labeled climate, handing it only to people who already agree that it’s a concern. The audiences you need to reach most never see your message about sustainability.
Leah Qusba has built a career breaking through the noise to reach audiences intent on climate progress. She’s the CEO of GoodPower, an organization you may have known until recently as Action for the Climate Emergency, or ACE. She’s led it for more than 15 years, growing it roughly tenfold into one of the sharpest media and research operations in the climate space, and she runs real experiments on what messaging actually changes behavior, working with thousands of content creators to carry the conversation to people the movement has never reached before. Her own path started along Wisconsin’s Fox River, in a stretch of water she played in as a kid that later became an EPA Superfund site before she finished high school.
We’re going to explore how to sell the benefits of clean energy when the word climate itself becomes a liability, and how you fight disinformation when a lie travels faster than the truth, and why Leah ultimately believes affordability, not alarm, is the door most people will actually walk through when asked about climate. So, what can we do to shift the climate conversation? Let’s find out after this brief commercial break.
[COMMERCIAL BREAK]
Mitch Ratcliffe 2:41
Leah Qusba, welcome to Sustainability In Your Ear. How are you doing today?
Leah Qusba 2:45
I’m doing great. How are you?
Mitch Ratcliffe 2:46
Well, I’m well, thanks for taking the time to talk with me. It’s always interesting to speak to somebody who’s been dedicated to climate awareness for so long. You grew up in Wisconsin’s Paper Valley, and a river you played in, the Fox, became an EPA Superfund site while you were in high school. How much of your work derives from the experience of having played in that river, which was polluted and needed a cleanup?
Leah Qusba 3:10
Yeah, I certainly didn’t know it at the time, growing up in small-town USA in northeastern Wisconsin. I think it has impacted me dramatically and greatly. I kind of look back — it’s over, you know, 25 to 30 years ago at this point. I look back at that time and think, wow, there’s nobody organizing people around that type of environmental disaster. People were angry, they felt powerless. It took over a decade, and then the EPA said, well, we did our best, we can’t really fully clean this up in terms of all the PCBs in the river. So I look back on that time, and I think it did set me on the path that I’m on today.
Mitch Ratcliffe 3:52
We know so much more about the world, and part of the experience of living by a river that turned out to be so polluted is your own recognition. How do you use that approach to storytelling to help other people make the leap to understand where we are with regard to the climate?
Leah Qusba 4:09
Well, I often think about my dad, and what’s interesting about my dad is he’s a staunch conservative — he believes climate change is not man-made — and he recently became a supporter of solar, not because of me, not because of his own daughter’s influence, but actually his HVAC guy has a side business doing rooftop solar, and it was that conversation that convinced my dad. So I think what I take away is: rural speaks to rural, conservative speaks to conservative, neighbor speaks to neighbor.
I think in an internet environment where people trust what’s on the internet less and less, and with the rise of artificial intelligence and related content, I think all we have left is really each other, and so we really leverage that. How do we find stories of communities that already have solar, wind, and batteries, for example, to demystify what these technologies are for a neighboring town, county, or state? It really works.
Mitch Ratcliffe 5:11
In September, you changed the name of the organization from Action for the Climate Emergency to GoodPower. What stopped working about the words climate emergency?
Leah Qusba 5:21
Yeah, I mean, I think as the years went on and we were using this brand, we don’t want to fall into traps where climate, decarbonization, and energy issues are sort of unfairly politicized as left versus right. When we say words like climate in a rural conservative community, that can be a non-starter. When we say things like emergency, do we fall into the trap of being climate alarmists, as we have been dubbed? There’s a different way — there’s a bigger-tent approach where, depending on the audience you’re speaking to, there’s different ways in to showing the economic promise of the energy transition.
Right, what do communities get? Jobs, community investment, long-term leases for farmers and landowners that are, you know, nervous private equity is coming to buy their land for an Amazon logistics warehouse or a data center or something like that. So I think for us, our brand wasn’t working for enough of the American people, especially where, you know, ground zero for the energy transition happens to be rural red America, where a lot of this infrastructure needs to be built and is being built.
So we did it because we wanted a bigger tent that more people could get under and feel a sense of belonging — that, wow, I see something for me in the energy transition. I see something for me in what community benefits I could potentially reap from decarbonized power being built in my town or community. So it was really about creating that bigger tent for more people to get under.
Mitch Ratcliffe 6:51
Well, your dad’s experience is recognizing that there’s economic opportunity in advanced technology. Funny thing, it wakes you up to the opportunity, but it doesn’t address the fact that we’re being told that there’s a crisis all the time, and one of the issues that I seem to run into a lot is that even within the climate community there are very rigid differences of opinion about where to focus our effort and investment. How has the movement torn itself apart to a degree, even as it establishes real credibility because of the fact of the climate changing so rapidly?
Leah Qusba 7:25
I mean, when you just break it down to scientific terms, right? Climate change happens very slowly, and then all at once, I think, is the famous quote, right? How did I go broke? It started slowly, and then all at once. I think for us, what we have learned — we’ve been in business for about 18 years, and I’ve been at GoodPower for about 17 of those years — the number one voting issue, cycle after cycle, and now even young people in 2024, in the last presidential, even young people rated the economy as number one. Usually they’re voting on values issues, you know, racial justice and all sorts of other things. They rated the economy. So the economy isn’t working for most people. Nearly 70% of us in the US live paycheck to paycheck.
So we really, at GoodPower, recognize that people want immediate change. How are my energy bills going to go down? Why are prices at the gas pump going up and down like the stock market? Why aren’t they more predictable? The answer: homegrown power — solar, wind, batteries. It’s not exposed to global commodity risks like oil and gas, right? There’s no far-off war that is going to make the cost of the wind and the sun, which happen to be free — there is no fuel cost — it’s not going to make those go up and down in that way.
So I think it’s about connecting the everyday experiences and things people are constantly worried about. How am I going to keep my job? Am I going to be laid off? Will I be able to afford groceries this week? My energy bill doubled in the last year, and there’s no sight. How do we look at the energy transition as unlocking this generational economic opportunity, right? This potential economic renaissance for the middle class. It’s not just saving money and having more predictability and control and autonomy around one’s bills. It’s also about the wealth regenerating and the economic investment.
I’m from a rural community. These communities are emptying out. Young people are leaving. They need investment. They need new schools, new infrastructure, new roads. Farmers are struggling — hundreds close every year in the US. Well, great: let’s farm 300 acres of solar, along with my 3,000 acres of soybeans and corn. When I have a rough year, the solar still pays the bill. So I think there’s incredible economic potential here, and that hasn’t really been communicated effectively.
Mitch Ratcliffe 9:39
You argue that renewable power is good power, but at the same time, as you just pointed out, our energy bills are going through the roof. Are you arguing for truly distributed energy generation, or are you saying that there is a path to a collectively owned — whatever form that takes — infrastructure that allows us to really meet the electrical demands of the era we’re entering?
Leah Qusba 10:00
I think that’s a false choice. Our position is all of it. We are huge proponents of distributed energy resources, dispatchable power, some of the virtual power plant policies and investments that we’ve seen. We’re huge proponents of utility-scale and community-level renewable projects. We think battery energy storage — when you pair that, right, that’s the invention of the battery — is how we get to more reliable power. So all of it. I think we need all of it.
I think, you know, global energy volatility is really a hidden tax on American families that people are really exhausted having to pay, in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis where everything else is going up — healthcare, housing, groceries. When energy goes up, by the way, everything else goes up too. So I think it’s the predictability, it’s having more control and not being at the whims of these sort of global markets and importing that volatility into people’s lives that already feel chaotic.
Mitch Ratcliffe 10:59
And yet we need to press through the capital investment phase of this with determination, and it seems like the determination is being shaken by, let’s say, people at the White House. How do you tell a story in the face of such rigorous and often completely misleading responses from the other side of the political argument?
Leah Qusba 11:20
Well, I think the American people are pretty smart. Only 40% of Republicans actually approve of their own president’s energy policies right now. That’s from GoodPower’s own national poll we did with the University of Chicago back in mid-March. So there’s extremely low approval. People understand — they feel it. You have to fill your gas tank up, right, probably once, maybe twice a week. If you’re going on vacation, a lot more than that. You have to pay that energy bill and open it up, or go online and pay it every month. So it’s in your face constantly. Nobody’s seeing change, and when you have only 40% of your own party approving your energy policies and your agenda, that’s pretty abysmal.
So I think, from my perspective, when we look at the sort of all-of-government approach to kill renewables, we’re choosing energy winners and losers, and Americans are left kind of holding the bill. It’s simple economics 101 here — supply and demand. If we’re restricting the fastest, most affordable electrons from coming online, which happen to be from solar, storage, and wind right now, we’re going to drive up bills. I mean, my 11-year-old daughter would understand the economics of that.
Mitch Ratcliffe 12:28
AI is going to play a big part in how we ultimately tell the story, and part of the solution in terms of how we optimize everything that we do — simply because we have visibility into how things work in ways we would never have been able to pre-AI. How do you integrate that part of the story, that some of this investment is necessary to develop the intelligence that is going to help us untangle the crisis that we face?
Leah Qusba 12:53
I think the stark reality is that data centers are highly unpopular right now, and land use in general — land use projects across the country are really facing increasing public opposition. I am seeing some really bright lights within the news cycle around land-use development that is being done very responsibly, transparently, in an innovative way. I think about some of the Google data center announcements recently in the MISO region, where they’re looking creatively at how do we get electrons through virtual power plants, how do we invest in infrastructure, how do we invest in community benefits, how do we procure clean electrons to power our digital infrastructure. So I think there are some really good actors out there lifting up those stories where these developments are happening in a very positive way.
I think we can look to the utility-scale renewable energy sector — I mean, this is a lot of GoodPower’s work — but just telling the stories: people have reaped enormous benefits and are very happy with this infrastructure when it’s done in the right way, and it’s transparent, and it’s with stakeholder input. I think there’s a way to do land use that can be really uplifting to communities, but getting their input and involving them as stakeholders, I think, is absolutely essential.
I think the other piece of the story that we forget: big tech, right — technology has been the number one global procurer of decarbonized electrons on planet Earth for the last 15 years. So in other words, the growth of the renewable energy sector has been commensurate with the growth and advancement in the sort of digital revolution and technology. So again, there’s a right way to do it, and if we can uplift stories of where the community is on board with this infrastructure — because they’ve been consulted and they’ve gotten to weigh in, and they’re really getting a good deal out of it — I think the more we can do that, the better off we’ll be.
Mitch Ratcliffe 14:47
On the other hand, AI is also part of the problem, because it is used by algorithms to direct people away from the issue. You’ve said that when you mention climate in a video, it immediately gets relegated to a pile of links to people who already agree. In other words, we’re talking to the converted. How do you articulate that to somebody who is focused on the concerns they have about their community — particularly a rural community, where I live in one as well — when talking about the need for the investment in electrification and AI, which is also potentially part of the problem that we face in terms of being relegated to pools of people who agree and never get the opportunity to evangelize to others?
Leah Qusba 15:28
We don’t say anything to rural communities. We let rural communities talk to each other, so that’s what we enable. We basically find stories that are under-told and under-platformed. For example, here’s a farmer in rural Oklahoma, in western Oklahoma. They’ve had wind on their land for 20 years, put their kids through college. They were able to keep their generational farm that was handed down to them for six generations, and they wouldn’t have been able to keep it without the wind industry, right? So that could be very convincing to another farmer who’s facing closure in a neighboring plains state, or even within the Midwest generally.
So brands, I think, need to say less. I think what we need to do more of is find and mine those stories where the projects were built responsibly, the land-use development was done in a way that enriched the community and, you know, consulted the community. How do we find those stories? We’ve produced hundreds of these now over the last five years, all over the United States, all over Brazil, the UK, right, where we were trying to really build positivity and social permission and social acceptance of this infrastructure. The stories are all out there, and it’s just about platforming and telling them and breaking through when we see this news cycle that has been so anti-renewable from this particular administration. This is the counterbalance. Just go and ask the communities, and they’ll tell you how they feel about this infrastructure.
Mitch Ratcliffe 16:55
Can you give an example of a story that, for lack of a better word, sells the idea of economic prosperity built on renewables?
Leah Qusba 17:03
Yeah, I mean, really authentic, genuine stories. I’m thinking of a story from Mayor Joe Hardy in Boulder City, Nevada. Mayor Hardy is a Republican. He’s a staunch conservative. His story is about how economically secure Boulder City, Nevada, is for the next 25 years. He talks about solar and storage. He takes us out to the fields and shows us what that looks like, and that the community has no economic worries in terms of property tax revenue, and where those revenues are going, and how it’s investing in community infrastructure, schools, etc.
I think of another story in Oklahoma, of a school superintendent who talks about how the community benefit agreement that they signed with this wind developer built a new school, and what that means for children in a community that has not seen a lot of investment over the last few decades. And then we have countless stories of farmers, landowners, neighbors to these projects who talk about the community benefits agreements — what’s in them: long-term leases, new infrastructure, donations of emergency management vehicles, police cars, fire trucks.
And again, when you position the community as a stakeholder and it’s transparent and you consult them, we can strike deals here that really work for the industry and for building decarbonized power, and that really work for people in the communities who feel like, “Wow, I’m being invested in, I’m not being extracted from.” We’re not replicating those systems of extraction; we’re investing in building something together. I think that’s really special.
Mitch Ratcliffe 18:35
Is there a risk in the movement swinging so hard toward pocketbook messaging that it no longer talks about climate, or clean in contrast to the dirty systems — or is that exactly the point?
Leah Qusba 18:45
I also think this is a false question, because we do talk about climate. It’s important to talk about climate. 8% of voters under 35 rated climate as their number one issue in 2024. So a front-door climate message, and increasing the awareness and the pie — you know, the slice of people who are really motivated by a climate message that’s front-door — I think there is a huge audience out there. We speak to that audience.
I think the point is, this is not a one-size-fits-all solution, right? The internet and social media are increasingly fractured. Audiences are tribalized. Knowing what platform you’re on and who you’re speaking to — once you know that information, you should have a very sophisticated segmented strategy. How do we connect audience to messenger and message? If you’re trying to have a silver bullet, sort of, you know, one campaign to rule them all, I think that’s a recipe for failure, and in fact you can have polarizing effects. You can make people feel less inclined to support energy and climate policies that are going to drive forward a decarbonized economy by not having the right messenger, or even a polarizing messenger that could make them more entrenched in that opinion. So I think you can do more harm than good in some cases.
I think having empathy — whether you’re talking to somebody on the left side of the ideological spectrum or the right side of the ideological spectrum, or somewhere in between — really knowing who those people are and what moves them and what they’re about, and really trying to seek to understand them and not label them as something other, or “these are not my people.” I kind of hear a lot of that sometimes. Everybody’s our people. If you’re a person, you’re our people. And I think there’s a way to speak to literally anybody about these issues in a way that’s going to land with them, and that’s really the science of communication.
Mitch Ratcliffe 20:37
To be a people person takes real work, especially when you’re telling stories. There’s a lot to unpack in this strategy. Let’s take a quick commercial break and come back to continue this fascinating discussion. Stay tuned, folks.
[COMMERCIAL BREAK]
Welcome back to Sustainability In Your Ear. Now, let’s continue the conversation with Leah Qusba. She is CEO of GoodPower, which is a strategic communications nonprofit working to highlight the need for and benefits of renewable energy. Leah, how do you see the world of storytelling changing because we have the tools that AI unlocks to target and reach people better? Or are we going to be overwhelmed by misinformation? I’m just — where should we set the bar in our expectations about the future of storytelling?
Leah Qusba 21:25
What a deep and complex and fascinating question. So let me start with the platforms themselves, where people are now using Claude and ChatGPT and other AI platforms almost as Google search platforms, right? So they’re looking for information. So I think one way that we’re using these tools is really, how do we set the terms of what information comes up when people are searching around: is solar good or bad? You know, will this raise my bills, lower my bills? Right, so it’s basically like SEO, but for these AI platforms — it’s called AEO and GEO. So how do you do search optimization and get the facts, not the fiction, to pop up in search results? So we do some of that work, going to the source of when people are searching, what information are they getting.
I think then, you know, we think about AI as a technology when it’s really a set of complementary capabilities, right? We’ve got automation — how do we automate the tedious and repetitive things that humans don’t want to do, so we can focus on higher-level creative work? Predictive — right, how do we forecast where siting and permitting battles are going to be through 2030 around clean energy projects, or where opposition might be forming? So how do we predict the future? And then we’re all familiar with the generative capabilities around doing better analysis and communications and content creation, etc. And the way we look at these capabilities at GoodPower, it’s less about a single piece of technology; it’s about leveraging these capabilities to build custom models. So I can walk you through a few pieces of those technologies that we’ve sort of housed.
One product is called CleanCast, and this is a piece of predictive, AI-enabled technology. It helps us forecast where the renewable energy industry might build their projects, so it pipes in public opinion research from local counties, it pipes in the governmental, environmental, and regulatory constraints that might exist. Are there existing bans and moratoria? How does that state do permitting? Does it do it at the county level through a county commission, or is it a state process through a PUC or PSC? So all sorts of intelligence to help us predict: where are these projects going to be built? What’s the prime location? Can we get there first and inoculate the public to disinformation? Can we make them resilient and less vulnerable to disinformation?
The disinformation we see out there is astounding. There was a disinformation cluster last week trying to scare potato farmers, saying Frito-Lay won’t buy your potatoes if you host solar on your land, because they’ll have glass shards in them — your potatoes will have glass inside from the solar panels. We traced this disinformation to some potato trade industry associations that are funded predominantly by the fertilizer industry, and fertilizer is petrochemicals, right? So if you follow the money — how do we anticipate where disinformation or opposition is going to be? Where is the industry going, and how do we get there first? Generally, people remember what they hear first, right? So before the public understanding hardens around the disinformation, how do we get there first? So that’s an example of one product. I have a few more I could share with you as well.
Mitch Ratcliffe 24:41
Well, you also have a small army in what you call the Creator Collective — 8,500 creators, 350 to 400 million followers in food and fashion and gaming and all the things that creators do. How does the sustainability message travel through a network like that? Maybe the message begins with a car influencer, then you run into it in a fashion commentary as well.
Leah Qusba 25:03
Well, I think, going back to your previous question around the tribalization problem on social media — like, how do we break through when the algorithms just sort us into the, you know, left-of-center green climate bucket? We don’t want to be sorted into that bucket. So creator marketing is a way to get around that. We don’t generally lead with a sustainability message with everyone. We lead with the message we think is going to work with that audience.
So if we’re trying to reach a bunch of car bros or commuters that really could save thousands of dollars annually from switching to an EV — maybe they live in a rural commuter town, they drive to the city for work — we want to hire a bunch of car bros, right, creators that are talking about fixing cars, and they slip EV messaging into their regular content streams that are more entertaining for their audience. We call it the raisin bread theory, where most of the content stays the bread, and you’re sprinkling in the raisins.
You could apply this to any one of these content verticals. If we’re talking about regenerative agriculture and getting toxic chemicals out of our food supply, MAHA moms are a great example — suburban white women in the MAHA movement, right? We want to find a bunch of them, or doctors and nurses who are really universally credible messengers who talk about health content. So depending on the audience and the campaign’s goals, we look into that community and we decide: okay, who do we want to engage for this campaign, and who’s the right credible messenger for the audience?
Mitch Ratcliffe 26:26
So would you describe that as: you coordinate and plan a sequence of messages? Or is this something that continues to happen organically based on your urging?
Leah Qusba 26:35
We do both. We do long-term campaigns that are multi-year, sort of patient-capital investments to changing an entire community’s way that they think about these technologies, where maybe there was a huge gap in understanding. One example would be: over 55% of Americans say they’ve never or rarely even heard about battery energy storage. They don’t know what it is. Great — it’s a fantastic opportunity to provide some baseline education to a huge group of people, where these projects are probably going to be built. We can get there first, before any disinformation gets out around these projects.
Then we have things that are more reactive and tied to the news cycle. So, almost two decades I’ve been in this work, and we keep losing during these rapid-response, sort of high-attention moments. The wildfires in LA are a really great example from last January, and we actually lost that narrative — DEI was blamed, that we were too busy with DEI in California to, you know, do proper forest management. It was ridiculous, but when you looked online and did advanced social listening analysis of the narrative, there were more mentions where the disinformation around DEI took over the conversation, instead of “hey, climate change is making these disasters more costly, more dangerous, and by the way, insurers are leaving the market in California.” Who’s holding the bag for that? It’s not the polluters that caused the problem; it’s the ratepayers, the premium holders that live in that state. So how do we make those connections? So there’s both a rapid-response element where we’re gathering this intelligence from the news cycle and responding, and then there’s more long-term strategies that we’re building as well.
Mitch Ratcliffe 28:14
Talk a little about the rapid response. In January, Winter Storm Fern caused up to $6.7 billion in damage, and there were a lot of disinformation initiatives around that storm almost immediately, and they were blaming wind and solar for the grid not having stayed as resilient as it needed to be, ignoring the fact that it’s an ancient grid. What does an effective, fast counter-messaging effort look like? How do you move the truth at the speed of a lie when lies are propagating so quickly?
Leah Qusba 28:46
We actually did a rapid-response activation with our creator community that last weekend in January — I remember that vividly — and because Winter Storm Fern was a forecasted storm, we actually had a few days of lead time, so it wasn’t a same-day activation. We could plan and really activate our community.
So what we did: we used the best practices — sort of the gold standard for inoculation, or prebunking, is another way you can name it. It’s to prepare the audience for disinformation they might see, so that when they see it, it bounces off of them instead of sinks into them. So we follow the Debunking Handbook, and there’s a way to do it where you’re not reinforcing the disinformation. There’s a huge risk in social science of actually reinforcing the lie if you don’t do it in the right way, in terms of introducing the truth, talking about the disinformation, and ending with the truth. We call it the truth sandwich.
So we did that. We activated a couple dozen creators who got millions of views on their content, basically saying, look, the lights are going to go out because of this storm. It’s affecting over 20 states. It’s happening this weekend. If you see blaming or scapegoating — that, oh, the power went out because of those unreliable renewables — don’t be fooled, that’s not the reason. It’s actually inter-regional transmission in our aging grid, and literally frozen coal and gas supply.
And we can look back — we had people who went through Winter Storm Uri. We had some Texas moms who were in our rapid-response creator community that could talk about their own experience. Oh, the same thing: Governor Abbott actually said disinformation on national television in Texas, saying, “Oh, those frozen wind turbines, that’s why the lights went out.” So we actually had people from Winter Storm Uri, who went through that in ’21, that were part of this collection of creators that were activated and were able to speak to their own experience — that, oh, every time there’s extreme weather and the lights go out, renewables are scapegoated. Don’t be fooled, that’s not what it is, it’s this. And so it was very effective.
Mitch Ratcliffe 30:45
Now, you do a lot of randomized trials of different kinds of messaging, and I’m wondering if there’s an example of something that you didn’t expect to work but really did when you put it in the market — or conversely, something you thought was a surefire win that didn’t work at all.
Leah Qusba 30:59
You know what was surprising? We saw a speech that was televised on the Senate floor with Senator Brian Schatz from Hawaii. He was giving a speech on the Senate floor around how the Trump administration’s policies to block renewable energy were driving up the cost of electricity and utility bills for Americans, and that that will continue to happen. We said, wow, this is great — most people in our testing think Congress isn’t talking about these issues. So we said, why don’t we give this speech to our creators, have them clip it up and add some commentary to it, and we’ll have a bunch of them share it. And then we’ll do a randomized control trial, where the treatment audience saw the content — one of the pieces of creator content — and the control group saw nothing, or a placebo. Let’s see how this works.
And our research question was: does this help Democrats, or does it help Republicans? Like, what happens when we have people in Congress talking about this? And it turns out not only was it extremely effective at solidifying the idea that these policies to block renewables from being built are driving up bills — so it was very effective at education and awareness — it was very bad for the Republican party generally. Eleven points we were able to get in the treatment group on disfavor for how Republicans were handling energy policy and utility issues. So we found that to be fascinating. We didn’t think a single exposure of a speech of somebody in Congress talking about these issues would be that effective, or have that outsized of an impact.
Mitch Ratcliffe 32:27
One of the things I noted: you started off focused primarily on youth climate education, but as you pivot toward everyone’s energy bill — which is a very dinner-table kind of 30s-and-40s, you-got-kids, you-got-to-think-about-this-stuff kind of problem — how do you stay relevant to youth who continue to grow up into what they can see plainly is a crisis, but that is increasingly being cast as a pocketbook issue?
Leah Qusba 32:53
I think what’s fascinating, and the unique part of this story, is that I’ve been at GoodPower almost the entire time, so many of the young people I personally worked with in high school are now into their 30s. They’re working for social impact investors, they’re working at the EPA, they’re working for big foundations, some are working for hyperscalers and AI companies, and what’s fascinating is they’re taking those values around these issues into their professional lives.
I think, you know, this idea of kind of growing up and maturing within the movement — and I think post-COVID, when we see how COVID really affected the youth movement in general, and college campus organizing: nobody was in person, and you kind of got to be in person to do organizing, to build those relationships and pass the baton to underclassmen, etc. So I think, for us, seeing some of these young people mature themselves into the professional working world — this generation has now permeated the private sector, the public sector, and they’ve carried this sort of generational youth climate movement, sparked by Sunrise, you know, sparked by our organization, Power Shift Network. They have a whole new view, I think, that they’re bringing into corporate America right now, around their values and around how much they prioritize climate and energy policies that make sense.
I think they’re also living in a world where they can’t attain the same things their parents did financially. They can’t own a home, they can’t afford to buy a car, or even move out of their parents’ house. So I think our messaging around the economy — I think it works for young people that have kind of grown up in this movement and are very angry, like most Americans are, around this cost-of-living crisis.
Mitch Ratcliffe 34:37
The number of jobs represented by the capital that is being held in abeyance because of the misinformation must be incredibly frustrating for younger people. I mean, we can see the explosion of economic opportunity that would happen — it might look more like China, for instance. I was reading your 2030 plan; you’re leaning into AI and product development and breakthrough technology, and I’m wondering what those breakthrough technologies that you think are most important to understanding where we can go might be.
Leah Qusba 35:07
I think geothermal is really fascinating. Of course, anything that is zero carbon, I think, is really interesting to our organization when we think about the climate problem and decarbonizing the global economy. I think it’s a very nascent technology, so there’s some fair criticism there, but I would say uniquely it has this bipartisan support because it uses the same rigging and tools and equipment and skills as the fossil fuel industry, right — oil and gas and fracking workers. So I think there’s incredible bipartisan support as well, and I think as these technologies mature, we’ll be in a front-row seat, kind of looking and seeing how these develop and mature over time.
When we think about artificial intelligence tools, we think about it in a bit of a different way. I think one pervasive issue we’re seeing right now is AI manipulation and fabricated opposition in local siting — so AI-generated comments flooding decision-makers, and they don’t know what’s real and who’s real. So we built a product for that called TrueVoice that separates authentic local input from AI-manufactured opposition. We’re going to give it to community stakeholders, county commissioners, public service commissioners, the developers — everybody deserves to know: okay, what’s the probability that there was AI manipulation on this docket, and now how much do we weigh this? Maybe it’ll create new systems of what we prioritize and how we gather community input. Maybe there’ll be a premium on in-person hearings and showing up, you know, and reinvesting in local organizing.
So I think our use of these tools is really around identifying the cracks that could become fissures that could become huge cliffs for the work that we do in our pathway to accelerating decarbonization — and how do we fit within those, and how do we problem-solve and deliver solutions that don’t just solve our own problems at GoodPower, but sort of solve big, big systemic, sectoral problems.
Mitch Ratcliffe 37:04
As you think about where we are right now, and everything you just said in the context of what we’re looking toward in terms of the world we want to build — what are you most hopeful about right now?
Leah Qusba 37:13
Well, I think the market forces, much to President Trump’s chagrin, are just too strong to stop the industry. You know, we have a deadline coming up on July 4, where the PTC and ITC — right, if you haven’t begun substantial construction, and now this is being litigated, or this 5% test, you know, have you spent 5% of the project budget — you will not be eligible for the PTC and ITC, these important tax credits that make these projects more lucrative and more profitable and more desirable from a financial investment perspective.
But when you look at the impacts of this sort of arbitrary deadline that we’re all racing toward — yes, Rhodium Group says, you know, the industry is going to take a hit, and a lot fewer projects will be built, there’ll be more consolidation — but the industry is too mature, and decarbonized power is too attractive and affordable and clean and just desirable and homegrown and stable and secure. There’s just too many good things, I think, wrapped up in decarbonized power to stop it.
I think the same is true for electric transportation. If we look to the global south — we work in the global south and non-OECD economies — where you see these two-wheelers and people buying electric vehicles in droves, because they don’t want to import this volatility of the global oil market into their households either. We look to food and agriculture, the MAHA movement of regenerative agriculture, the best carbon capture solution nature offers. People don’t want poison in their food, and we’re seeing a movement around that, and we’re seeing people get very exhausted and disgusted with, you know, the administration’s actions with Monsanto recently.
And so I think there is too much momentum for any one person or one administration to stop what’s happening right now. Can we throw roadblocks? Can we create friction? Can we run interference? Of course. We see our role as removing those bottlenecks, and kind of the counterbalance to that. So I think that gives me hope. The question is, how much time will it take? Time is our greatest enemy, and if we can save time, I think that’s the point. That’s where we avoid the worst consequences, and we seize the most opportunity. So how do we save time?
Mitch Ratcliffe 39:22
How does the adaptation story fit into what you’re doing today? Obviously, we’re going to need to prepare for this.
Leah Qusba 39:28
I think there are fantastic organizations out there working more on adaptation, disaster relief, mutual aid — community-based organizations that are doing a lot of that work. I think it’s hugely, hugely important. We’re going to need to figure out how to live and thrive and support people. The stories out of New Orleans, you know — hey, people have to move; this is going to be us; we’re going to lose 60 miles inland, right? So it has to happen. That’s not work that GoodPower is leading.
There’s a group of organizations, and also environmental disaster survivors. Extreme Weather Survivors is a great organization led by a dear friend of mine named Sierra Kos. They’re doing incredible work to really platform disaster survivors and what it’s like to live through wildfires, lose everything, lose your insurance — what does it look like to be on the front lines of these climate consequences, and how do we really tell those stories and use them, I think, as a warning signal, but also as an education tool to move local, state, and federal policies further toward supporting people.
I think the last thing I’ll say is some of the insurance subrogation laws that are being proposed in Rhode Island and New York, California, Hawaii. These are some of the leadership states saying, wait a second, polluters caused this knowingly for four decades — why are my constituents being left holding the bag? Why are they footing the bill when this industry was complicit? There’s actually a huge state policy movement right now called insurance subrogation, where insurance companies can actually go and make the industry pay for this and clean up — have a superfund, basically, where these companies pay into it, and when these disasters happen, they have to help clean it up, and that bill should not go necessarily to the community or the homeowner. And the insurance companies, too, I think, always get the blame and the ire, but as this continues to happen, that market is going to be more and more difficult over time. So I think having a solution where those most responsible and complicit with driving this situation are also going to be helping to pay for it.
Mitch Ratcliffe 41:46
Leah, thanks so much for this incredibly inspiring conversation. How can folks keep track of what GoodPower is up to?
Leah Qusba 41:52
Oh, good. Go to goodpower.org. We’d love to hear from you. You can contact us, you can reach me on LinkedIn, where I’m active as well, and we’d love to be in touch. Thanks for having me.
Mitch Ratcliffe 42:02
Thank you very much for spending time with us today.
Leah Qusba 42:04
Take care.
[COMMERCIAL BREAK]
Mitch Ratcliffe 42:11
Welcome back to Sustainability In Your Ear. You’ve been listening to my conversation with Leah Qusba. She’s CEO of GoodPower, the climate and media research organization known until recently as Action for the Climate Emergency, and you can learn more about Leah and her team’s work at goodpower.org. GoodPower is all one word, no space, no dash — goodpower.org.
Let’s consider what it means when an organization that spent 18 years with the words climate emergency in its name concludes those words themselves have become an obstacle to connecting with an audience. Now, this was a data-driven decision. Only 8% of voters under 35 rated climate as their top issue in 2024, and young people ranked the economy first and most important. And that’s the movement’s critical base. If it’s to transform this economy, affordability is what people — especially young people, who want to buy their first home, want to buy their first EV, or would like to be able to put their kids through school. Those folks are the ones who are going to make the change that we’re talking about, who are going to vote — both with their wallet and at the ballot box — for a new world. GoodPower’s rebrand is a bet that the movement can meet them at the crossroads of economics and sustainability.
Leah accurately described global energy volatility as a hidden tax on American families. Every far-off war and commodity swing shows up in the utility bill and at the pump, while wind and sun carry no fuel costs at all. There’s only the capital investment involved in building the solar and wind systems in the first place; then you get free power. But with oil, those taxes are effectively paid to companies, not governments. And as we heard in last week’s interview with Shareholder Democracy’s Gabriel Grant, shareholders have not yet leveraged their voting power to exert control over the companies whose stocks they own, and those companies are ultimately accountable to those shareholders.
When you see the problem through the lens of the Trump administration’s hypocritical approach to market competition, in which they suppress emerging technology, the renewables argument becomes simple supply-and-demand mathematics. The fastest, cheapest form of energy is being blocked from coming to market, and the result is rising rates rather than economic resilience. This isn’t the proverbial 500-miles-per-gallon carburetor purportedly suppressed by the oil industry in the 1970s. This is a real technology ready to reduce the cost of living while doing immense good for the environment, and people see this. GoodPower’s polling with the University of Chicago found just 40% of Republicans approve of their party’s current energy policy.
There’s a real tension as we continue to reinvent the economy, and Leah’s decision to lean entirely on pocketbook messaging is a clear path to building support for solar, wind, geothermal, and other renewables, which will only become more plentiful, not run dry, over the next century, like fossil fuels ultimately will. Leah’s answer is audience segmentation: one message — a front-door climate message — for the audience that wants one, the people who are already convinced and who want to share that message; and on the other side, economics-based messaging for everyone else. The messenger now matters more than the message, and in an era of influencers, this really comes through bright and clear.
Leah’s father, a conservative who doubts human-caused climate change, went solar because his HVAC contractor made the case — not his daughter, who runs one of the country’s largest climate communication shops, but an HVAC contractor. As Leah said, rural speaks to rural, neighbor speaks to neighbor, and GoodPower has operationalized that instinct at scale. They have a creator collective of more than 8,500 content makers with a combined audience in the hundreds of millions, and they’re slipping what Leah calls raisins of clean energy content into the bread of car videos, food channels, and gaming streams. And they measure it. That’s a discipline that separates persuasion from wishful thinking. What you can measure, you can change. It remains too rare in a movement that too often assumes its urgent warnings will carry the day by themselves.
The last idea to revisit is a leading indicator, and that is that artificial intelligence has become the new front line of the information fight, on both sides of the aisle.
Mitch Ratcliffe 46:29
People now ask Claude and ChatGPT whether solar will raise their electric bills, so GoodPower practices answer engine optimization to make sure accurate information surfaces in the first AI response. Its CleanCast tool predicts where siting battles over solar installations, wind installations, and so forth will erupt, so that developers can inoculate communities before disinformation arrives — like the recent industry-funded campaign that told potato farmers that solar panels would result in glass shards in their crops. Another tool that GoodPower has come up with, the TrueVoice tool, launching now, separates authentic public comments from AI-manufactured opposition flooding county permitting dockets and congressional mailboxes.
So one of the good things about AI, at least, is that it allows us to cut through a lot of the noise that we’re being flooded with. But look, this is an arms race, and Leah is candid about the tools being young. These are nascent movements and a nascent set of technologies we’re building on. But the prebunking playbook worked with Winter Storm Fern in January, when creators reached millions with the truth about the aging grid before the wind-turbine scapegoating could harden into what would be perceived as truth by many people. There’s a clear strategic method evolving in real time, and we will keep tracking that race for the American mind here on Sustainability In Your Ear.
Hey, look, if today’s conversation was useful to you, could you pass it along? Sharing an episode with a friend or leaving a review on your favorite podcast website is a great way to get the word out there, because folks, you are the amplifiers that can spread more ideas to create less waste. And you can tell folks they can find more than 560 episodes of Sustainability In Your Ear at Earth911.com/podcast, or you can check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Audible, or whatever purveyor of podcast goodness you prefer.
Thanks for your support. I’m Mitch Ratcliffe. This is Sustainability In Your Ear, and we will be back with another innovator interview soon. In the meantime, folks, take care of yourself, take care of one another, and of course, let’s all take care of this beautiful planet of ours. Have a green day.
The post Sustainability In Your Ear: GoodPower’s Leah Qusba on Selling Clean Energy as Pocketbook Power appeared first on Earth911.
https://earth911.com/business-policy/sustainability-in-your-ear-goodpowers-leah-qusba-on-selling-clean-energy-as-pocketbook-power-2/
Green Living
Guest Idea: Green Bins Are Spreading Faster Than the Habit of Using Them
Editor’s Note: This is a sponsored posting.
Curbside food scrap collection has spread fast. BioCycle’s nationwide survey counted 14.9 million U.S. households with access to food waste collection in 2023, up 49 percent from 10 million two years earlier.
Getting those bins used is the harder part. Reported participation runs from near-universal in a handful of cities to under 30 percent in others. That gap matters. Food waste is about 24 percent of what U.S. municipal landfills take in, and the EPA estimates it accounts for 58 percent of the fugitive methane those landfills release. An unused green bin isn’t a neutral outcome.
Quick definition first, since the name varies. The green bin is the curbside cart for household organics: food scraps, plus yard trimmings and food-soiled paper depending on your program. It’s collected separately from trash and recycling and sent to a composting or anaerobic digestion facility instead of a landfill. It isn’t green everywhere. Toronto runs a Green Bin program, New York City uses brown ones, and elsewhere it’s the organics cart, the compost cart, or the food scraps cart. What matters is where the material ends up, not the color.
Why People Quit the Green Bin
Households opt out for a long list of reasons: confusion about what’s accepted, forgetting collection day, plain inconvenience. I’d add one that gets less attention because it’s unglamorous. The bin gets disgusting, cleaning it turns into a recurring chore, and eventually the chore wins.
I’ll be straight that this is a hypothesis, not a documented finding. I haven’t found a study that isolates bin cleaning as a reason people quit. What I’ve got is the pattern I hear from customers constantly. But there’s evidence that making the job less unpleasant moves the numbers.
In 2023–24, Essex County Council in the UK ran a year-long Food Recycling Project. It delivered a package to more than 375,000 households: a sticker for the general waste bin, an information leaflet, and a free roll of compostable liners. Food recycling tonnage rose an average of 21 percent against a control group in the first three months after delivery, more than double the council’s 10 percent target.
The liners were one piece of that package, running alongside a media campaign, so the case study can’t tell us how much of the gain they drove on their own. What it does show is that handing people a tool to keep the mess contained belongs in the mix alongside better signage. It also shows the limit. Free liner giveaways are a subsidy most households will never get.
So the question isn’t whether a cleaner, contained bin helps people stick with the program. Plainly it does. The question is how you get there when nobody’s handing out free bags. That’s the gap BagEZ fills.
Doing More With Less
BagEZ holds a standard bag open inside the green bin, 13 gallons (49 liters) and up. Food scraps go into the bag, not against the cart. Everything stays contained, and the bin stays clean and dry. That’s aimed straight at the reason people give up: the cleaning.
It’s a folding steel rack with clips that lock the bag to the frame. The handles grip the bin’s rim and hold the bag open and suspended. On collection day you pull off the clips, seal the bag, and lift out the frame before setting the bin at the curb.
The size is up to you, and the data says most kitchens don’t need much. The MITRE-Gallup survey, the largest U.S. household food-waste study to date, surveyed nearly 10,000 households and put the average household’s food waste at 6.2 cups a week, or about 8.8 cups once you count peels, cores, and bones. That’s a bit over half a gallon. Even a household running well above average isn’t close to filling a big curbside cart with food scraps. So size the bag to your kitchen, not your bin. A 13-gallon bag is plenty for most households, it costs less than lining a full cart, and a right-sized bag is also what makes the odor tricks below work. Size up if your program takes yard trimmings too, or if collection runs every other week.
One caveat before you change anything: check what your program accepts. Liner rules vary a lot across North America. Some programs take certified compostable bags only, some want paper or newspaper, some want food scraps loose in the cart. A bag your hauler doesn’t accept can get your cart skipped and the whole load flagged for contamination. Earth911’s recycling search is a good place to start: earth911.com/recycling-search

After collection, a wipe with vinegar and water handles anything that’s built up. On a bin that’s stayed dry, that’s a seasonal job, not a weekly one, and you never have to drag out the hose.
The Green Bin Yuck Factor
Ever notice the puddle in the bottom of your countertop organics caddy after you pull the bag? That’s mostly moisture coming out of the food itself. Produce is largely water, and as it breaks down that water gets released.
The same thing happens in the curbside bin, at a bigger scale. Bags of scraps keep releasing moisture as they sit, and when a bag rests against the bottom and sides of the bin, that liquid builds up into the sticky residue that smells and makes the bin dirty.
BagEZ works differently because the bag never touches the bin. The frame holds it up and lets air move all the way around: underneath, the sides, everywhere. Condensation on the outside of the bag has nowhere to pool. It evaporates instead of collecting at the bottom, and the walls stay dry.
A right-sized bag makes the odor tricks work better, too. A sprinkle of baking soda in the small contained space around the bag does more than the same sprinkle spread thin across a big empty floor. Less smell, fewer flies. Fewer flies, no maggots.
Some people use food-grade diatomaceous earth against fly larvae. DE works by drying insects out, and it stops working the moment it gets wet, so a dry bin is a precondition for it doing anything at all. Same story as the baking soda: it only earns its keep in a dry, contained gap.
Two more that help, cheap. A few sheets of newspaper under the bag catch drips if a bag ever fails. And a cloth sachet of peppermint and cloves tied to the outside of the bin throws off raccoons and rodents, which hunt almost entirely by smell. A bin that doesn’t smell like food stops being worth their trouble.

Why It Works
The infrastructure is already there. The bins are at the curb, the trucks run, and the environmental case, going by the numbers up top, isn’t in question. What’s been missing is a cheap, fast way to keep the bin clean enough that people don’t quietly give up on it.
A reusable steel frame that holds a bag open sounds too simple to matter. That’s sort of the point. The bin stays clean, the habit stays easy, and food scraps end up where they’re meant to.
Set it next to the alternatives and the difference is in how each one works. Bin cleaning services deal with the problem after it happens, on a schedule, for a recurring fee. Full-size liners cost money every week and are sized to the bin, not to what you actually throw out. A frame is a one-time buy that works with the bag size your household already uses.

A green bin program only works if people keep using it, and people keep using what doesn’t gross them out. That’s the hinge the whole thing turns on. Take away the wet mess on the walls and most of the reasons to quit go with it: nothing pooling at the bottom, nothing to hose out, no smell pulling animals across the yard. The bin stays clean on its own, week after week, with a bag you were going to buy anyway.
Size it to your kitchen instead of your bin, clip it to the frame, and the green bin stops being the chore you avoid. Find it at bagez.com.
About the Author
This sponsored article was written by Sean Rana, the founder of BagEZ, a Canadian company behind the steel hanging bag frame that keeps garbage and green bins clean without special liners or ongoing costs, and works for waste and storage on the go.
The post Guest Idea: Green Bins Are Spreading Faster Than the Habit of Using Them appeared first on Earth911.
https://earth911.com/how-to-recycle/guest-idea-green-bins-are-spreading-faster-than-the-habit-of-using-them/
Green Living
Sustainability In Your Ear: David Fenton on How to Win the Climate Debate
Yale researchers estimate that roughly 80 million Americans are alarmed about climate change. About 40 million of them say they want to be politically active on the issue. But only about 3 million actually are. When that 37 million-American group is asked why they aren’t active, researchers most often hear that nobody has asked them. That’s the focus of this week’s conversation on Sustainability In Your Ear. Only 12% of Americans say they ever see anything about climate change on social media, and two-thirds say they rarely or never hear about it from friends or in the media. At the same time, the fossil fuel industry treats persuasion as core business. David Fenton calls the situation unilateral disarmament at a moment when an information war is needed. The crowning result of climate action to date is the Inflation Reduction Act that passed by one vote and was repealed by one vote. A bill you win by a single vote, he says, is a bill you never really won David founded Fenton Communications in 1982, the first public relations firm in America built solely for progressive causes. His campaigns helped free Nelson Mandela and end apartheid, helped ban fracking in New York, where Yoko Ono’s “Imagine There’s No Fracking” billboard went up along Governor Andrew Cuomo’s commute, and helped launch fossil fuel divestment with the heirs to the Standard Oil fortune as the messengers. His book, The Activist’s Media Handbook: Lessons from Fifty Years as a Progressive Agitator, includes a foreword by cognitive linguist George Lakoff, who we discuss at length in this thought-provoking interview.

He places the blame on climate advocacy spending and, more importantly, the words used to frame the issue. The climate NGO and philanthropic world spends billions a year on policy, law, and science, and spends on communication mainly to raise money from people already on its lists. David traces that to what Lakoff calls the Enlightenment fallacy, the belief that a strong idea reproduces itself because it is correct, and to its corollary, that selling ideas is dirty work beneath serious people. The second is vocabulary. “Net Zero means almost nothing to most people. “Carbon” sounds like an abstraction. And “justice,” in cognitive research, evokes images of the police and courts, not of fairness and a shared mission. We need to pivot to simpler language, like “pollution,” when describing the source of global warming. Pollution is a word nobody defends, and a blanket of pollution trapping heat that would otherwise escape into space is a picture people can easily grasp and act on.
Asked how to solve climate change, the most common answer Americans give is “reduce, reuse, and recycle.” Earth911 has spent three decades on that vocabulary, and it holds up on its own terms as a materials strategy. Increased curbside recycling participation rates don’t necessarily lead to decarbonizing the grid or the truck fleets. David Fenton’s prescription for listeners is blunter than any campaign plan: talk about it, post about it, and press the funders you know to spend generating public demand for change rather than direct mail fundraising. Learn more about David’s work at davidfentonactivist.com, and find his podcast at fentonforecast.com.
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Interview Transcript
Mitch Ratcliffe 0:09
Hello. Good morning. Good afternoon. Or good evening, wherever you are on this beautiful planet of ours. Welcome to Sustainability In Your Ear. This is the podcast conversation about accelerating the transition to a sustainable, carbon-neutral society, and I’m your host, Mitch Ratcliffe. Thank you for joining the conversation today. Let’s talk about how to win the fight for planet and people. We already know what to do about climate change. The clean energy solutions exist. They’re the cheapest form of power on Earth, and the warning signs, from fires and floods to the rising costs of food and insurers walking away from whole regions, are impossible to miss. And yet, after decades of effort, only about a quarter of Americans are deeply engaged with the urgency of climate action, and just half are even concerned. So here’s the puzzle that my guest today, David Fenton, has wrestled for more than 50 years. If the danger is this clear and the answers are this good, why has the movement failed to bring the public along?
Part of the answer is that we’re making the case in openly hostile territory. Federal climate policy has been rolled back. The fossil fuel industry has spent decades manufacturing doubt about global warming, and its allies are ready to blame wind and solar within hours of any grid emergency, whether or not the facts support it. The social platforms where most people get their news quietly bury anything labeled climate, showing it only to the people who already agree. And if you’re a climate-concerned person, the audiences that you most need to reach will never see those messages. As David puts it, we’re in a propaganda war with the fossil fuel industry, and we’re not even on the battlefield.
David Fenton has spent his life trying to change that. He started as a teenage high school dropout, shooting photographs of the anti-war movement and the Black Panthers for the underground press in the 1960s. He co-produced the No Nukes concert at Madison Square Garden, and in 1982 he founded Fenton Communications, the first public relations firm in America built solely for progressive causes.
Over four decades, his work has helped free Nelson Mandela and end apartheid, helped ban fracking in New York, and helped launch the fossil fuel divestment movement in partnership with the Rockefellers. In fact, the heirs to the Standard Oil fortune as the messengers for the movement. And now he’s distilled it all into a book called The Activist’s Media Handbook: Lessons from Fifty Years as a Progressive Agitator. And that includes a foreword by cognitive linguist George Lakoff. We’re going to explore how to speak to people’s hearts before their heads, and why “make polluters pay” travels farther than “net zero by 2050,” as well as how to fight disinformation when a lie outruns the truth, and how to win over conservatives without bending the facts. So, what does a lifetime of victories and hard-won failures teach us about protecting the planet and democracy itself in this pivotal moment? Let’s find out after this brief commercial break.
David Fenton, welcome to Sustainability In Your Ear. How are you doing today?
David Fenton 3:15
I’m feeling sustained. Thank you. How are you? Sustained.
Mitch Ratcliffe 3:17
Good. I’m doing well. It’s a beautiful day here in southern Oregon, and I know in Berkeley it’s probably a nice morning as well.
David Fenton 3:25
It’s a little foggy, and that’s good. We are avoiding the heat waves of the rest of the country.
Mitch Ratcliffe 3:30
Twain’s observation about San Francisco is always kind of a satisfying one when you get there, but you hear about it and you think, “Gosh, it must be cold.”
David Fenton 3:38
Yeah, well, colder is a little better right now, given what’s going on in our overheated world.
Mitch Ratcliffe 3:44
Absolutely. Hey, look, you’ve spent 50 years working on trying to change the world, to put it mildly. And in the book, you turn the lens on the movement itself, calling the climate crisis the biggest communication failure in the history of progressive advocacy. Why does so much of the fault lie on our side of the conversation?
David Fenton 4:04
Well, it’s not only on our side, but everybody talks correctly about the fault of the corporate polluting interests that have confused everybody and spread all this propaganda and intentional lying, the biggest criminals of all time, in my opinion, at least measured by impact, but our movement bears some responsibility also. You know, I mean, just look at the data. You know, only 12% of Americans say they ever see anything at all about climate change on social media, their main source of news increasingly. Only, let’s say, two thirds, according to the Yale research, say they rarely or never see or hear anything about climate change from their friends or in the media.
You know, the environmental groups do a lot of great things: policy, law, science. But they don’t communicate. They don’t spend money on communicating, by and large, even though they’re very wealthy. They have huge budgets. They don’t value that, you know. As we all know, they only go out to communicate with their members to raise money, not to educate or get people involved in action. When people say that they rarely or never see or hear anything about this, that’s a failure.
And at the same time, the fossil fuel industry is very focused on propaganda and communication. They’re building up all these online influencers. They’ve always had a natural focus on this, and we’re practicing what, in the main, I would call a unilateral disarmament in the information wars. And you know, you can’t decarbonize the economy at the speed we need to according to physics without the public being on board. You know, we saw this when Biden’s Inflation Reduction Act passed by only one vote, and when you win only by one vote, you’ve won nothing permanent. And in my opinion, it’s an indicator that you have not done enough to get the public on your side, and that’s why Trump was able to repeal most of it by one vote. So if we’re winning and losing by one vote, we’re losing.
Mitch Ratcliffe 6:22
But do you feel, because of the one vote that still separates the two sides of the country, so to speak, that there is a lot of opportunity for real permanent change still ahead?
David Fenton 6:33
Absolutely. You know, I’m very optimistic because you know the data shows we can help people understand what this is simply, in ways that speak to their concerns about their health and their children and their property and their jobs and their prosperity and their security. But we don’t, by and large. I mean, first of all, we don’t reach people hardly at all, and then when we do, our language is an obstacle. We do not speak in terms that people can understand or that speak to their values and their everyday concerns. You know, like take the term net zero. Nobody knows what the hell that means. You know, people really do not know what carbon is, sorry. And so the whole, you know, and climate justice, that’s another one. You know, as I tell people, if you want climate justice, please don’t call it that, because nobody knows what it means. And you know, if you look at the science of cognition and linguistics, when you say the word justice, what comes into people’s head is the police and the court. So you’re confusing the hell out of people.
Now, when you talk about pollution, which is the cause of this, everybody knows what you’re talking about. And the other great thing about the word pollution is that no one will ever defend it. Pollution is never good. No one ever likes it. So, you know, we know from the research that the best language and imagery to explain what we’re doing to the Earth to people is that we have put a blanket of pollution around the Earth that’s trapping heat that used to go back out to space, and everybody can see that. That activates existing mental frames. People know what pollution is. They know what a blanket looks like. They know what a blanket does. It traps heat. So all that heat energy that used to go back out to space is now making it hotter, duh. So that’s how we need to talk about this, but we don’t.
So another thing, you know, stop me from rambling on here too much, is that people learn from influencers and characters and personalities, and we don’t build hardly any up. Al Gore has, you know, long faded from predominant view. Bless him, he did a great job. But where are influencers? You know, we have them in the wings, and we have no infrastructure to create more visibility for them, and we don’t think it’s important. So you know, I’ve written about, why is this? Why does the climate community, the vast NGO and philanthropic enterprise behind it, and it is vast, it’s very, you know, it’s many billions of dollars a year, why, excuse me, why doesn’t it value communicating and getting the public on board to demand change?
So, the best answer I’ve found comes from the great Berkeley linguist George Lakoff, and he says that people who study the humanities, the sciences, and the law (I’m talking to you, Bill Gates) have what Lakoff calls the Enlightenment fallacy.
That is the idea that a great piece of science or a great policy idea is going to magically reproduce itself because of its sheer intrinsic engineering brilliance, and this is a false view. The world does not work that way, and there is a corollary view to the Enlightenment fallacy, which is that selling ideas is dirty, manipulative, and beneath us, and we don’t do that even truthfully. So contrast that, Lakoff does, with the people who go to business school. That’s who we’re up against largely, who study cognitive and marketing science, and who, in most cases, except the finance guys, have to sell products and services to advance their careers, so they have a natural tendency and inclination to engage in public persuasion to succeed, and it’s very profitable for them. You know, do marketing and public confusion and propaganda, and you can avoid regulations on your industry, or get yourself a multibillion-dollar tax cut.
Mitch Ratcliffe 11:25
Thank you. That’s a great kickoff because you covered about half the questions I wanted to talk about. But let’s go back and unpack some of that stuff.
David Fenton 11:32
Sure.
Mitch Ratcliffe 11:33
Money was where you started, with money in politics, and you closed with business people earning a profit. So money is a theme here. Is the problem partly, and I find that I am consistently put off by the number of requests for money I get daily, is the problem money in politics in the first place? Should Citizens United be repealed?
David Fenton 11:59
Absolutely, of course. You know, we’re supposed to have a democracy, which means one person, one vote. But because of our very corrupt and very partisan, sadly, Supreme Court, they’ve turned it into one dollar, one vote. That is not what the founders intended, and that’s not a democracy. That’s a kleptocracy. So yes, this is a fundamental problem, but that’s a surmountable problem. You know, if you create a mass movement.
Mitch Ratcliffe 12:34
What would it look like to show up and create that mass movement?
David Fenton 12:37
Well, we’ve seen it many times before. You know, I’m very privileged. At age 74, I’ve seen and participated in a number of mass movements fighting the odds and winning. You know, we stopped the Vietnam War. We overcame segregation in the South. We got gay marriage. We got compassionate care to HIV victims. You know, on and on and on. There have been a lot of victories. We legalized marijuana. You know, we’ve certainly vastly improved the status of women and gays, and civil rights in our country. We have a long way to go, but it’s nothing like it was.
So these were all the results of mass movements, and there will be a mass movement to save a livable Earth. That’s going to happen. The weather’s going to make it happen. The problem, of course, as you know from the physics, is that we wait too long to let it happen spontaneously instead of nurturing it. It could be too late. So I’m confident it’ll happen, but we’re not building the infrastructure and creating the demand for it to the degree that we could, and it would cost a fraction of the philanthropic and NGO spending on climate and the environment today if it was directed to that.
Mitch Ratcliffe 14:01
Well, so how do you win that business person over to the idea that there is more profit in a more sustainable, renewable energy-based economy?
David Fenton 14:09
Well, that’s happening more and more because, of course, as you know, almost all new investment in energy is going into clean energy and storage. So the market is doing that more than people know. Actually, you know, the industry, the renewable power industry, has done a very bad job of marketing. It’s kind of, you know, shell-shocked and browbeaten and keeping its head down. There is a new effort underway called Amped, amped.org, to have the industry do more sophisticated communications and to stop getting punched in the face so much.
You know, all this ridiculous stuff. Offshore wind kills whales, a meme brought to you by the people that don’t give a crap about whales. You know, or well, all the mining for solar panels and batteries, which of course is a tiny, tiny fraction of the drilling and mining for fossil fuels. I mean, these people are shameless, and they’re good at it, and we don’t counter them hardly at all.
Mitch Ratcliffe 15:21
One of the issues is sort of the preponderance of bad news, and I think back to Love Canal galvanized the environmental movement in there in the 80s.
David Fenton 15:31
Sure.
Mitch Ratcliffe 15:32
And now, you know, Altadena burns to the ground, Pacific Palisades burns to the ground, wildfires everywhere. I literally was evacuated because of a wildfire a couple of weeks ago.
David Fenton 15:42
Oh, wow, sorry.
Mitch Ratcliffe 15:43
And well, we made it. My house is here. When you mentioned Vietnam, for instance, I mean, we lost about 58,000 Americans in Vietnam. But because of pollution from oil and natural gas, about 91,000 people die every year in the United States, and an additional 15,000 because of the wildfire smoke and the particulates that people are inhaling. What do we do to focus the potential rage that would change things?
David Fenton 16:11
Yeah, well, again, only 12% of Americans see or hear anything about climate change and clean energy on social media. Two thirds say that they rarely or never see or hear anything about it in the media or from their friends. It’s not an issue people talk about, and that’s all overcomeable. We have no infrastructure, no marketing campaign, no persuasion campaign, none, zero, zilch at any scale to do something about this, so you can’t expect people to mobilize and organize when you have one side of an information war confusing them and reaching them all the time, and the other side quiet, basically, and underfunded.
And it’s especially tragic because in the digital communication age, we know exactly how to reach people. It’s not expensive, really, compared to the money we’re spending on other things. We know how to do it. We have all the data. There’s a great group called Potential Energy Coalition, run by a former branding guy, corporate branding guy. They have all the data. They know exactly what messages work with which audiences, but nobody is deploying it. So this is the problem. You know, there are other problems, of course, in the digital age. People sometimes feel that clicking on something is the same thing as activism, which it isn’t. But you know, I mean, here’s another issue.
So according to the Yale research, the Yale Center on Climate Change Communication, there are approximately 80 million Americans who are in the category of alarmed about climate change, and half of them, 40 million people, say they want to be politically active on the issue, but only 3 million of them are politically active on it. And by the way, that’s about the combined mailing list of the environmental groups asking you for money. So then, when they ask the 37 million who want to be politically active and aren’t, why aren’t you? You know what the number one answer they get is: nobody has asked me.
Mitch Ratcliffe 18:23
They’ve only asked for money.
David Fenton 18:25
The 37 million, they even haven’t asked them for that. So, in other words, you have an infrastructure failure. We are not reaching our own base, and our own base, according to Dr. Anthony Leiserowitz at Yale, is the largest potential issue public in the country, other than abortion, much bigger than the NRA and guns. But it’s not being organized. I mean, ask yourself: if you wanted to go take effective climate action today, where would you go? What website would you go to? What social media channel would you go to? Where would you go?
Mitch Ratcliffe 19:06
Yeah, I have to say that in order to act, other than going to the website where I can send a note to my representative in Congress, not a lot of places come immediately to mind because everything is so diffuse.
David Fenton 19:19
That’s right. So no one’s building up a trusted brand, a trusted organization to do that. We could, of course, we could, and you know that speaks to a whole other issue, which is, I think we’re past peak crazy wokeness in the progressive nonprofit world, but we still have a lot of it.
You know, the language problem is big, as I mentioned, but there’s also a dogmatic problem and an ideological problem. You know, if you are stressing racial and gender divisions in your communication, you’re not going to unite people against a common enemy, so not that those subjects aren’t important. Everybody’s identity is important, but we’re not going to win by appealing to subgroups. We’re going to win by assembling majorities.
Mitch Ratcliffe 20:18
We have to think of a big tent.
David Fenton 20:20
That’s right, and we need, and look, you know, we could win conservatives too. No one has a program to do that at any scale. Now, I’ve conducted experiments where I’ve bought videos on climate change into the social media feeds of conservatives, and the videos feature conservatives explaining how global warming threatens conservative values, and they’re very effective, but no one does it.
So if you’re a conservative or Republican in your filter bubble, all you ever see is that climate change is a hoax. So what do you think you’re going to believe if that’s the only information that ever reaches you? Okay, so we could disrupt that. You can buy advertising on Facebook and Instagram, and LinkedIn, and you know all these platforms. The Russians do it, but we don’t.
Mitch Ratcliffe 21:18
David, you’ve ignited a great conversation. I want to take a quick commercial break, and we’re going to be right back to continue the conversation. Stay tuned, folks.
Welcome back to Sustainability In Your Ear. Let’s get back to my conversation with author and progressive activist David Fenton, whose new book, The Activist’s Media Handbook: Lessons from Fifty Years as a Progressive Agitator, is a guide for multi-generational campaigns for a rational climate response. David, you mentioned social media and buying advertising there, but one of the problems, and not just for advertising, but just individual posts, is that when you use the word climate, it ends up being routed to the people who already care about climate. How do you communicate when the name of the problem that you’re addressing is buried?
David Fenton 22:07
Well, first of all, you can buy access to people who aren’t in that bubble. You can just pay for it, and it’s not expensive. And of course, with digital communications, you can test your messages and content to see what really works before you pay to scale it. So it’s not an excuse, you know.
And there is something else, which is, I think that we need to put more pressure on the tech platforms and companies, and by the way, also on the television networks, which are not irrelevant as people may think. You know, I mean, the TV networks are big on TikTok as sources of news, and they don’t ever, hardly ever, link extreme weather to pollution from fossil fuels. So, you know, these people can be pressured. The problem is, the only people that pressure them are the right. We don’t, because again, our community doesn’t think you need to sell ideas. We think that’s dirty and manipulative.
But by the way, you know, thanks for mentioning my book. You know, I also have a podcast now called The Fenton Forecast on all platforms, and we’re looking at the future of climate and AI and health and democracy and all these issues.
Mitch Ratcliffe 23:27
You’ve got a rule: fight falsehood immediately, and that’s because a lie will harden into a truth the more times it’s seen. But now a lie outruns the truth by a pretty wide margin, largely because the other side pays for it to do so. What’s your playbook for fighting disinformation? How’s it changed, particularly as a result of AI and the ability to amplify everything?
David Fenton 23:48
Well, it’s not only that they pay for it; they’re unified, and we’re the Tower of Babel. So you know, the Koch-funded conservative infrastructure of all their think tanks and influencers and podcasts and you know all of it. You know, they speak to the same topics and messages on a daily and weekly basis. They meet. They coordinate. They’re in lockstep, and that’s very important because the cognitive science is very clear. The way people learn is from significant amounts of repetition of simple messages. Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. Simple, simple, simple, simple, simple.
And by the way, most people in our community hate that. We hate simplifying things. We’re not rewarded for it, and we hate repeating ourselves. But that’s what works, and they understand it, so they organize their field to do that. And we’re, you know, everybody on their own doing their thing. So that’s one big problem. I mean, even in our scientific community, there’s no unity of discourse or language or imagery that would help a lot. Nobody organizes it, so, and we could pay for it also.
Now AI is a whole other thing, of course, and you know I don’t have all the answers to that, but I do think that eventually we are going to have to have laws in this country that demand that AI-generated content is labeled as such, and we also should have laws that to be on a social media platform, you have to prove you are a human, not a Russian bot. We’re going to go through a lot of hard times, and eventually we’re going to end up regulating these platforms. You know, you see the difference. Look at why are the Europeans so much more focused on appropriate levels of regulation of social media, and they have some rules about media in general. It’s because they went through fascism and the Holocaust, and they saw how unchecked demagoguery can kill millions. So they’re focused on this, and we’re still in a frontier, false idea of freedom model. And but it’s not going to last.
Mitch Ratcliffe 26:17
When you say that people on the left don’t like to repeat themselves, it really comes home for me because I hate repeating myself. And George Lakoff, who wrote the foreword to your book, in addition to being somebody you talk about, has argued that there are two kinds of minds politically, or two moral worldviews, that are based on different models of the family. One’s the strict father; the other is the nurturing parent. And Lakoff’s work on metaphor and how it informed our relationship with the world, Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things, is a brilliant, brilliant book. And his book on mathematics just blew my mind 20, 30 years ago. But I’ve never really agreed with that bicameral mind idea. How does that framework change the way you think about talking to people about climate?
David Fenton 27:03
Okay, so you left out a third category from Lakoff, which are the biconceptuals, he calls them. So Trump’s the conservative strict father. The father’s always right. White people on top. Man on top. That’s conservative morality, and the nurturing parent, that’s, you know, we kumbaya feel-good liberals. But the swing voters are the people who have both neural networks, and they either can be activated depending on the language and personalities they are exposed to.
For example, in an election campaign, so take for example James Talarico in Texas, who’s running for Senate. So he’s attracting lots of swing and independent voters and some Trump voters because he’s activating the nurturing, caring, love thy neighbor, actual Christian side of their brains. So I think that the job here is to activate and mobilize the base and win over a significant number of the biconceptuals, and then you have an enduring majority. So I think that’s how I use his framework.
You know, of course, the reason we don’t like repetition and simplicity is in academia, you’re not rewarded for that. You’re rewarded for specialization. Yeah. You know, the smaller the better. So yeah, it’s bad training. It really is.
Mitch Ratcliffe 28:41
Two of your signature wins turned on the messenger who delivered the message, not just the message. One was the Rockefellers divesting from fossil fuels, and the other was Yoko Ono put up a billboard on Governor Cuomo’s commute that said, “Imagine there’s no fracking.” And as I read about that in the book, I was thinking of McLuhan and his argument that the medium is the message, but it sounds like we’ve moved to the messenger is the message. Is that the case?
David Fenton 29:08
More, yeah, because as trust in institutions has declined, including traditional media institutions, what trust remains is in people, is in individual influencers online, including some celebrities like take Taylor Swift or people like that. So yes, whereas the media used to be the message, it’s increasingly what we call parasocial influencers, people that you trust and who you follow.
So the fossil fuel industry is building up a bunch of these people. You can see it. In fact, right now there is a torrent of horrible disinformation on climate on Elon Musk’s racist platform. It’s unbelievable. The worse the fires get, the hotter it gets, the more torrent of bullshit is on X. And a lot of it comes through, “Well, I used to be a climate activist, and I’ve seen the light. Fossil fuels are the greatest thing ever.” We have nobody like, so we have some incredible talent. Like, have you ever heard of Dr. Katharine Hayhoe?
Mitch Ratcliffe 30:25
Oh, sure. Yeah.
David Fenton 30:26
Okay. So she’s a Christian evangelical climate scientist at Texas Tech University. Her husband’s an evangelical preacher. She’s amazingly talented, and she has no help online, none. She has no video team, no social media team, no PR firm, no strategist. She does it all by herself. And because she’s so good, she has a million followers. She’d have 15 or 20 million, in my opinion, if she had help.
And here’s a comment on the philanthropic community and its prioritizing communication. Here we have this proven talent, and she can’t raise hardly any money to get a team because we don’t value this work.
Mitch Ratcliffe 31:13
What you’re describing is this talk of authenticity. That person represents the real, and I buy into it. What makes a messenger land, and how do you find the right one?
David Fenton 31:23
Well, she lands. We’ve proven it. I’ve done focus groups with her videos and online dial testing, and there are, you know, there are TV meteorologists who are really, really good at this. You know, former Governor Jay Inslee of Washington, he’s terrific at the clean energy side of this. The founder of Amped, Steve McBee, is really a terrific spokesperson. You know, Michael Mann, the climate scientist, he’s very talented. There’s a young scientist, Marcius Extavour, who’s really effective. There’s a number of them, but they have no help. Let’s get them some help.
Mitch Ratcliffe 32:04
The other issue that seems to be activating everyone, left and right, is concerns about the state of our democracy. And in fact, it ranks right up there with climate change. How do you see the fight for climate and democracy potentially merging in some way in order to make this into one struggle for a major change in the way we do things?
David Fenton 32:22
Yeah, I think that will happen. You know, we have fossil fuel industry evil billionaires, and now, unfortunately, we have Silicon Valley fascist evil billionaires, and these people are corrupting the democracy, and they’re also threatening people’s health and homes and livelihoods and prosperity and children and their lungs, so and their ability to get insurance. And you know, it’s like the Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis said in the 1940s. He said, you know, you could either have a democracy or you can have great concentrations of wealth, but you can’t have both.
So I think that this is all going to merge into a movement to have checks and balances on private power, which we’ve had before. Teddy Roosevelt broke up the monopolies and the trusts. You know, the top marginal tax rate in this country used to be functionally 70% under Eisenhower. It was 90, but functionally it was 70. That made owners of companies invest in their workers and businesses rather than give all the money to the government.
So actually, the whole ideology about taxes is backwards, so yeah, you know, there’s this tax on billionaires on the ballot in California this November. I think it’s very likely to pass, and it’s kind of sad to watch some of these billionaires. They’re so upset. It’s 1% a year for five years, guys. You know, this is half what you pay your hedge fund managers, and you pay them that even if they lose money. So it’s, you know, the wealth inequality is corrupting, and there are some good billionaires, you know, who fund a lot of great things, but this is distorted, and you can’t have a functioning democracy with this degree of disparity.
So yeah, I think it’s all going to change. I’m really confident it’s all going to change. History shows that periods of great income concentration lead to rebellion, and periods of less income concentration, just like periods of fascism and repression, never last. They lead to rebellions and it collapses. But the real problem, as you know, is we are running out of time to save a livable Earth and climate because the carbon dioxide stays up there for millennia, and this is the worry. Will this happen in time? And that’s up to us.
Mitch Ratcliffe 35:03
That’s the nail we have to figure out how to drive home. And Franklin Roosevelt, the other one, there’s an apocryphal story about him after coming to office. The Depression was underway. He brought the richest people in the world, in the country, to the White House and said, “Look, we have to do something about this, or they’re going to kill you. What is it going to take to …”
David Fenton 35:26
I want. There’s another meeting that Franklin Roosevelt had when he first took office. He brought in all these progressive and labor leaders, and they all laid out what they wanted him to do. And Roosevelt looked at them and said, “I agree with you on everything. Now go out and make me do it.” So that’s the job.
Mitch Ratcliffe 35:49
Well, okay, but what event catalyzes that moment here in the United States? Do we have to wait for the ultimate disaster?
David Fenton 35:55
You know, the disasters are happening all around us.
Mitch Ratcliffe 35:58
That’s the problem. It’s just, it’s …
David Fenton 36:02
Okay, but back to, there’s nothing on social media. There’s almost nothing in the regular media about this at all. But there’s certainly nothing simply linking the pollution from oil, coal, and gas to these weather disasters. So this is not something that people really know at a deep enough level.
You know, When you ask Americans what causes climate change, you know the number one answer you get: it’s caused by the ozone hole, which it isn’t. And when you ask them how to solve it, the number one answer you get, 40%, is reduce, reuse, and recycle, which won’t solve it. So you have climate illiteracy, which we could fix, and until we do, we won’t get action.
Mitch Ratcliffe 36:52
For someone listening right now, what is the one thing you would urge them to do?
David Fenton 36:56
Talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about it. Post about it. Get everybody to talk about it. We have an emergency that people aren’t talking about. That’s not good.
And I think that, pressure any philanthropies, philanthropists, and NGOs that you know to devote more of their resources to creating public demand. Public knowledge and public demand is what we lack. We don’t lack solutions; we lack demand.
Mitch Ratcliffe 37:30
David, this has been a fascinating conversation. How can people follow your work and tune into the podcast?
David Fenton 37:35
So The Fenton Forecast is on Spotify and Apple and YouTube and all the major platforms. The website’s fentonforecast.com. The website for my book is davidfentonactivist.com. Davidfentonactivist.com. And if anybody wants to write to me, it’s hello at fentonforecast.com. Hello at fentonforecast.com.
Mitch Ratcliffe 38:01
David, I hope you get a lot of mail. Thanks so much for your time today.
David Fenton 38:05
All right, thank you. Let’s stay in touch.
Mitch Ratcliffe 38:07
I’d love to.
David Fenton 38:07
Okay, bye.
Mitch Ratcliffe 38:14
Welcome back to Sustainability In Your Ear. You’ve been listening to my conversation with David Fenton, the founder of Fenton Communications, author of The Activist’s Media Handbook: Lessons from Fifty Years as a Progressive Agitator, and host of The Fenton Forecast. You can learn more about David’s work at davidfentonactivist.com. David Fenton Activist is all one word, no space, no dash. DavidFentonActivist.com, and you can find the podcast at fentonforecast.com, which is also all one word, no spaces, no dash. Fentonforecast.com.
So, 50 years of campaigning from No Nukes to the fight over fracking in New York, and here’s the verdict that David brings back: the climate movement is losing an information war because it showed up for the fight with ideas, not effective messaging. 12% of Americans say that they ever see anything about climate change on social media. Of the roughly 40 million Americans who say they want to be politically active on climate, only about 3 million follow through with action. And when researchers ask the other 37 million why they aren’t involved, the top answer is that nobody has asked them. Well, that’s not a public opinion problem. It’s an organizing failure based on overreliance on mailing-list-based fundraising. You’ve got to give people something to do, not just ask them for money to do something for them.
So let’s start with where the money goes. Climate philanthropy and the NGOs that it funds are very good at policy, law, and science, and they spend almost nothing on persuading the public that any of that matters. David traced that to what George Lakoff calls the Enlightenment fallacy, the belief that a strong policy argument will spread on its own just because it’s correct, in addition to the corollary that selling ideas is beneath serious people. I hear a version of this every week on the show. We are not short of solutions. We cover them constantly: heat pumps, geothermal networks, sorting technology that can pull a specific polymer out of a mixed stream. What we are short of is the 40 million voices that make any of it politically survivable. The Inflation Reduction Act passed by one vote and was gutted by one vote. And David’s read is that a bill that you win by one vote is a bill that you never really won. And so far, that’s proven to be true.
Now another point cuts closer to home for those of us who care about this. When Americans are asked how to solve climate change, the most common answer is reduce, reuse, and recycle, and bully for them. I believe that that is part of the solution. Earth911 has spent three decades on exactly that vocabulary, and I’m not going to pretend that it has succeeded. Recycling is a material strategy. It’s a big one because most of what we call consumption is really extraction, processing, and transportation, as well as the emissions embedded in the goods we buy, and they’re a bigger share of the national footprint than most people assume. But no rate of curbside recycling participation decarbonizes the grid or the fleet that delivers the products to us and takes it away, including for recycling.
David’s fix is to stop leading with the words that failed to gain cognitive traction. Net zero means almost nothing to most listeners. Carbon, which is the basis for life, is a mystery to most people. Pollution, however, is a word nobody defends, and David’s description of a blanket of pollution around the Earth that traps heat is a picture people already have in their heads. That’s worth borrowing and worth testing in conversations with your friends and family.
And finally, it’s time to look closely at the messenger economics that are involved in this new communications conflict. Trust has shifted from institutions to individuals, some of them pretty shady, and the fossil fuel side is investing in individuals. They’re hiring them, while our side leaves the best communicators to fend for themselves. David’s example of Katharine Hayhoe, the evangelical climate scientist with about a million followers who has no video team, no social team, and no strategist, is an example of that. Meanwhile, the clean energy industry, after years of taking punches over whales and mining, has launched another advocacy platform, Amped, in May of this year. Take a listen to my recent conversation with GoodPower’s Leah Qusba, who is working the same strategy from the tools end of the equation. That is, with AI-assisted tools for spotting anti-renewables messaging and responding to them.
And to David’s caution, I would add another: attention purchased is not the same as earned trust. Industry-funded persuasion carries a credibility discount, and the parasocial channel can cut both ways. The influencer who tells you that they gave up being a climate activist after seeing the light is using the exact same machinery in our minds. Money buys reach, but it doesn’t necessarily buy a message or messenger people will continue to believe. So here’s the number that I’m going to be watching for this year, and it’s not the number of gigatons of carbon or the gigawatts of energy, but whether a single large climate funder moves serious money into permanent communications infrastructures. And by the way, I am hearing rumors that there is one big one out there looking at a $300 million campaign. The 37 million wannabe climate advocates are still waiting to be asked, and they need to be equipped with messages and tools they can use to take action. So we’re going to continue to watch this story and share progress as it develops.
Hey, if this conversation gave you something to argue with, send it to somebody who will argue back and leave us a review while you’re there, folks. You’re the amplifiers that can spread more ideas to create less waste, and there are more than 560 episodes in the Sustainability In Your Ear archive to share with your friends, your family, and coworkers. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Audible, and any other purveyor of podcast goodness you prefer. Thanks for your support. We really appreciate you spreading the word.
I’m Mitch Ratcliffe. This is Sustainability In Your Ear, and we will be back with another innovator interview soon. In the meantime, folks, take care of yourself, take care of one another, and let’s all take care of this beautiful planet of ours. In fact, let’s advocate for it. Have a Green Day.
The post Sustainability In Your Ear: David Fenton on How to Win the Climate Debate appeared first on Earth911.
https://earth911.com/podcast/sustainability-in-your-ear-david-fenton-on-how-to-win-the-climate-debate/
Green Living
8 Sustainable and Non-Toxic Bed Frames for a Peaceful Slumber
Unwind and sleep easy with one of these non-toxic and eco-friendly bed frames that you know was sourced consciously, both in respect to your own health and the health of our common home: Mother Earth.
What is a Non-Toxic and Eco-Friendly Bed Frame?
Just as with other eco-friendly furniture, the key elements to consider when it comes to bed frames are the materials, finishes, general production practices, and durability.
Materials
If you’re looking for a natural bed frame and want it to be non-toxic, it’s typically best to go the solid wood route if you can.
Most plywood, particleboard, or engineered wood is made with glue that contains added formaldehyde. As a Volatile Organic Compound (VOC) and probable carcinogen, formaldehyde is an environmental and health risk for yourself and the workers producing that product. While all wood naturally contains formaldehyde, pressed wood contains higher concentrations of it.
Another material to consider if you’re looking for non-toxic furniture is solid metal, due to its durability, easy maintenance, and recyclability. However, this option isn’t as eco-friendly if that metal was newly mined, rather than recycled.
Sourcing
Of course, although wood is renewable, it’s not always sustainably sourced. Look at a company’s About or Sustainability pages to see what information they can provide about how the wood they use is harvested and where it is sourced from. Look for things like:
- Local sourcing. This minimizes the product’s carbon footprint and typically means that a company has more transparency into their supply chain.
- FSC-certified. While not perfect, the Forest Stewardship Council seal is the most widely used third-party verification for sustainably-sourced wood.
- Reclaimed wood. Finding a bed frame made from repurposed materials is a fantastic option if you can find it. Not only does using reclaimed wood reduce waste, but it minimizes the need to cut down additional trees.
Finishes
Most conventional finishes used on furniture contain VOCs, which can cause a myriad of short-term and long-term health impacts. Look for non-toxic bed frames with low-VOC or even better, zero-VOC finishes.
Other Production Practices:
- Renewable energy use. Does the company use wind or solar power for its operations? Do they purchase Renewable Energy Credits?
- Waste reduction. How does the company handle material waste such as leftover wood? Do they work to minimize water use and energy use?
- Donations. Does the company give back to an environmental organization through a group like 1% for the Planet? Do they plant more trees than the number of trees cut down to produce their products?
Durability
One of the all-too-often left out elements of sustainability is durability and longevity! The longer the bed frame lasts, the longer it stays out of the landfill, and the fewer new bed frames you’ll have to consume.
How can you determine durability? Look for sturdy materials, good construction, check out the reviews for the brand’s products, and see what sort of warranty the brand offers. Some brands offer 1-year or 5-year warranties, and some even include a lifetime guarantee! The longer a brand commits to standing behind its products, the better.
If you’re planning to move around often, you may also want to consider how well the bed frame can be deconstructed and reconstructed. Fast furniture brands with poor construction — and that may use plastic in places that should be supported with metal — may not hold up after a few moves.
A Quick Note on Certifications
Certifications aren’t the full story in sustainability, but they can provide an important added layer of verification to a company’s claims.
- FSC Certified = the wood sourcing was responsibly managed (not perfect but generally recommended as a stronger standard that Sustainable Forestry Initiative)
- GOTS Certified = the fabric meets strict organic and safety standards; this applies to the textiles only (like any upholstery on a bed frame), not the wood or any foam
- GREENGUARD / GREENGUARD Gold Certified = the finished product was tested for low chemical emissions, with Gold representing the stricter tier;
- LEED Certified = verifies the environmental performance of the building or manufacturing facility itself (energy use, water efficiency, indoor air quality); this is a facility-level certification, not a claim about the product’s materials or emissions
- Carbon Neutral Certified = verifies that a company has measured its greenhouse gas emissions and offset or reduced them to net zero; this is typically a company-level claim, not a guarantee about any single product’s individual footprint
How to Find Sustainable and Natural Bed Frames
As always, shopping secondhand is a great way to source furniture sustainably and more affordably! Sites like Facebook Marketplace, local Buy Nothing groups, and Craigslist can be resources for finding cheap eco-friendly furniture — sometimes, you can even get a piece for free if you’re willing to take care of the pick-up.
I also recommend checking out EstateSales.net to find local estate sales happening near you! I have found some of my absolute favorite pieces of high-quality, preloved furniture at estate sales.
For a more curated selection of secondhand bed frames, check out AptDeco.
And if vintage furniture (usually defined by being more than 40 years old) is more your style, take a look at Chairish, EBTH, or 1st Dibs.
If you can’t find anything preloved, or you’d prefer to purchase a verified non-toxic bed frame, check out these brands below for sustainable bedroom furniture!
Note that this sustainable bed frame guide contains affiliate links, meaning we’ll earn a small commission if you choose to purchase through one of these links, which helps us continue to run this site. As always, all brands meet rigorous criteria for sustainability and are brands we love — and that we think you’ll love too!
Brands with Sustainable and Non-Toxic Bed Frames:
Our Top Overall Pick: Savvy Rest
Savvy Rest has everything you need to sleep more restfully, from organic mattresses to non-toxic bedroom furniture. The brand’s timeless all-natural platform beds — The Afton is their flagship platform bed and The Esmont is a platform bed with a customizable headboard — are made in their own Virginia workshop. Each bed is crafted out of sustainably-sourced maple and poplar wood and is available unfinished or with a zero-VOC finish.
The non-toxic furniture company also has a sustainable adjustable bed frame crafted from responsibly-sourced solid red oak, featuring a mid-century modern headboard.
Conscious Qualities: Sustainably-Sourced Wood, Zero-VOC Finishes, Local Production
Price Range: $1,049 (Twin platform bed) – $4,799 (King adjustable bed frame) | Use code CONSCIOUSSTYLE20 for 20% off
Shipping: Free White Glove delivery within continental U.S.; contact for quotes outside 48 contiguous states
Best Reclaimed Wood Bed Frame Options: Avocado
Made in their own GOTS-certified Los Angeles factory, Avocado Mattress makes eco-friendly bed frames with high environmental, health, and social standards. Each bed frame is made out of reclaimed wood or solid FSC-certified timber and zero-VOC finishes.
For the bed frames made from new wood, Avocado Mattress uses non-toxic Titebond wood glues. The Certified B-Corporation also pays living wages and offers benefits, including family healthcare, to their production factory team members.
Conscious Qualities: Reclaimed or FSC-Certified Wood, Zero-VOC Finishes, Local Production in a GOTS-Certified Factory, Greenguard-Certified (Gold), Carbon Neutral Certified
Price Range: $750 (Twin platform bed) – $7,999 (California King frame with headboard)
Shipping: Ships furniture within the contiguous U.S.
Best Variety of Eco-Friendly Beds: Medley
Using only the highest quality non-toxic materials for their sustainable furniture, Medley has natural bed frames are made from domestically-sourced FSC-certified solid wood. Each wooden bed frame is made-to-order in Los Angeles using zero-VOC glue and zero-VOC all-natural furniture polish. (Note: Medley’s bamboo furniture uses low-VOC finishes.)
If you prefer an upholstered sustainable bed, check out Medley’s Nein bed which has the option to use organic natural latex.
Conscious Qualities: Local In-House Production, FSC-Certified Wood, Natural Finishes, Made-to-Order
Price Range: $2,495 (Twin bed with headboard) – $6,595 (King bed with headboard and storage)
Shipping: Contiguous U.S. (contact Medley for quotes outside of the U.S.)
Best for Sustainable Upholstered Beds: Saatva

Saatva is a sustainable mattress company that has expanded into eco-friendly bed frames too. The company uses responsibly sourced hardwood that has been kiln-dried for maximum durability for the bed frame as well as plywood slats for additional support. (Note: I asked Saatva’s customer support team about potential toxins in the plywood, and they have told me that their beds are free of formaldehyde.)
For upholstery, Saatva offers natural linen as an option, which would be the non-toxic fabric choice!
Probably the most impressive feature of Saatva’s beds is their attention to quality and proper support. They even offer a 180-day trial to make sure you love the bed, plus a lifetime warranty — a feature you definitely won’t find at most big box furniture stores.
Conscious Qualities: Sustainably-Sourced Hardwood, Natural Upholstery Option, Lifetime Warranty
Price Range: $795 (Twin platform bed) – $3,295 (King bed with leather headboard)
Shipping: Contiguous U.S; free in-room delivery
Best Design Forward Sustainable Beds: Cisco Home @ Urban Natural

Made to order with exceptional care in Los Angeles, Cisco Home is the real deal when it comes to quality sustainable furniture, including their eco-friendly upholstered or slipcovered beds. (Choose upholstered for a more classic style or select slipcovered for easy cleaning and maintenance.) Cisco’s cozy yet elegant beds will transform your bedroom into an aesthetically pleasing sanctuary.
Cisco Home’s default furniture options don’t automatically include their best eco materials. So for the most eco-minded and non-toxic option, select “Make it Organic” on the product pages which will ensure your bed gets made with only the highest quality earth-conscious materials: FSC-certified woods, organic latex, jute, hemp, organic cotton, and wool.
Conscious Qualities: Made In California, Made-to-Order, Low-VOC Stains, FSC-Certified Wood and Natural Materials (with “Inside Green” option)
Price: $3,588 (Twin upholstered bed) – $10,979 (King organic upholstered bed)
Shipping: Ships within contiguous U.S.; white glove delivery available with fee
Best Simple Sustainable Wood Bed Frame: Birch

Organic and eco-friendly mattress company Birch also has a natural wood bed frame made from responsibly-sourced hardwood. In fact, all of the wood in the Birch Wood Frame are from FSC-certified and LEED compliant sources, to verify their commitment to responsible wood harvesting and energy use.
Specifically, this sustainable bed frame is made up of Appalachian hardwood bed rails, solid Southern Yellow Pin wood slats, and Appalachian Maple legs. This minimal solid wood bed frame is finished with all-natural water-based VOC-free finishes.
And in case you needed more reasons to love this non-toxic bed frame: it’s handmade in the USA, ships free, and comes with a 5-year warranty.
Conscious Qualities: Solid Wood, Responsibly Sourced, Zero VOC Finishes
Price: $599 (Twin) – $978 (King)
Shipping: U.S. and Canada (feel applies to HI, AK, and Canada)
Best Affordable Eco-Friendly Bed Frame: Thuma
Minimal yet functional, Thuma’s eco-friendly beds are designed with intention — they are supportive and sturdy yet simple and easy to assemble.
Each minimalist bed is made from upcycled and repurposed rubberwood trees and is shipped out efficiently in recycled cardboard. (No styrofoam here!) With an average 4.9 star rating from nearly 21,000 reviews, there’s clearly a lot to love about Thuma’s sustainable bed frames.
Conscious Qualities: GREENGUARD Certified, Repurposed Wood
Price Range: $895 (Twin bed, frame only) – $2,595 (King bed with upholstered headboard)
Shipping: Ships within U.S. and Canada (international customers can use freight forwarder)
Best Untreated Non-Toxic Bed Frame: My Green Mattress
MyGreenMattress.com has a simple sustainable bed frame made in the US from untreated domestically-sourced Poplar wood. The non-toxic bed frame does not have any wood stains, adhesives, or toxic chemicals. This slatted platform bed also eliminates the need for a box spring.
Conscious Qualities: Domestically-Sourced Wood, Non-Toxic & Untreated, Made in the US
Price: $799 (Twin without headboard) – $1,899 (King with headboard)
Shipping: Free shipping within U.S.
And that’s a wrap on our guide to sustainable and non-toxic bed frames. Thanks for reading, and for taking the time to be thoughtful about your next bedroom furniture purchase. And I hope that this guide saved you some time and research and you’re on your way to finding the right sustainably-crafted bed that suits your needs and interior aesthetic.
Complete Your Bedroom: Non-Toxic Mattresses | Eco-Friendly Pillows | Organic Bedding | Non-Toxic Nightstands
Shopping For Other Furniture? Browse These Guides:
The Best Sustainable Furniture Brands
Non-Toxic Furniture Brands For A Healthy Home
Actually Sustainable and Non-Toxic Sofas for Restful Relaxation
The post 8 Sustainable and Non-Toxic Bed Frames for a Peaceful Slumber appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.
8 Sustainable and Non-Toxic Bed Frames for a Peaceful Slumber
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