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Glass makes up 62% to 70% of a solar panel’s weight, and as much as 80% of a bifacial module with glass on both faces. That single number explains most of what is wrong with solar panel recycling in the United States. The aluminum frame and the silver contacts are worth money. The glass mostly is not, so common practice is to pull the frame, shred everything behind it, and sell the mixed output as low-grade sandblasting grit or landfill cover. The EPA projects the country could accumulate up to 10 million metric tons of end-of-life panels by 2050, second only to China — roughly 393 million modules. And they are retiring now, not in 2050: broken during construction, shattered by hail, or pulled down in year 10 when a utility swaps a 200-watt module for an 800-watt one and quadruples output from the same land.

Our guest is Brett Henderson, co-founder and CEO of SolarPanelRecycling.com, or SPR. The company owns and operates plants in North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas, with a fourth opening in California this year, each built to run about a million panels a year and to scale to 3 million within six months when needed. SPR is a Solar Energy Industries Association-approved national recycler and partnered with SEIA on the first residential panel drop-off program in the country. Brett came to solar after 18 years in electronics recycling at Powerhouse Recycling, SPR’s parent company, and the business started in 2018 with a call from a longtime utility client that had 10,000 panels coming out of a power plant and nowhere to send them.

Brett Henderson, co-founder and CEO of SolarPanelRecycling.com (SPR), is our guest on Sustainability In Your Ear.

Brett is blunt about the economics: recycling a panel is a negative value proposition, because a panel is mostly glass and glass is cheap. What SPR sells is risk mitigation. Federal rules treat an end-of-life panel as hazardous until testing proves otherwise, most owners have no idea what is inside the modules they bought, and a utility loading thousands of them onto trucks takes on generator liability and Department of Transportation exposure. Aluminum and silver recovery subsidizes the rest. That cost has fallen 42% in 36 months at SPR, driven by rebuilt separation lines and steadier volume rather than any subsidy, and scale is what opens the end markets — a manufacturer will not retool a line for recycled glass cullet until a supplier can promise something like 160 tons of it every other week.

He is equally candid about the limits. Solar wafers require polysilicon at 6N purity, 99.9999%, and recovered silicon does not reach that grade at a price anyone will pay. The recovered glass is clean enough for foundries, but not for new module glass. A panel, in other words, does not yet close its own loop, and the discipline that matters is clean separation, sending each material to its best destination. He also points out the challenges in reusing early-retirement panels: utility-scale modules are too large for most rooftops, and a module’s UL listing lapses once it leaves its original application, which complicates putting it back on the grid.

On policy, Brett would take landfill bans plus bonding and insurance requirements at project permitting over extended producer responsibility. Washington’s producer takeback law is his cautionary example: enacted in 2017, its compliance deadline has slipped to 2031 after only one manufacturer filed an approved plan. Meanwhile SPR is financing capacity ahead of the wave, largely off its parent company’s balance sheet, so it will not have to turn away million-panel repowers while it builds. IRENA and IEA-PVPS estimate the materials in retired panels could be worth more than $15 billion globally by 2050, enough to build 2 billion new ones. Somebody has to build the receiving end of that system first. Learn more about SPR’s facilities and research at solarpanelrecycling.com — that’s all one word, no space, no dash.

Interview Transcript

Mitch Ratcliffe (0:11)

Hello. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are on this beautiful planet of ours. Welcome to Sustainability In Your Ear. This is the podcast conversation about accelerating the transition to a sustainable, carbon-neutral society, and I’m your host, Mitch Ratcliffe. Today, we’re going to look at what happens when the clean energy grid ages out.

The United States has installed millions of solar panels, and we tend to treat them as though they’re all 30-year promises. Put them on a roof or in a field, reap the sun’s energy for decades, and the waste question belongs to, well, somebody who lives in the 2050s. But the data says otherwise. Panels are leaving service right now, broken during construction, shattered by hail or hurricanes, or pulled down in their first decade because the utility that owns them wants to repower. In other words, to put new, higher-efficiency modules in place because they pay better, and, in fact, it’s much more profitable than waiting to upgrade. So you swap a 200-watt panel for an 800-watt module, and you quadruple the output from the same land, which is why perfectly functional panels are coming to be retired by year 10.

And the EPA expects the country to accumulate as much as 1 million tons of solar panel waste annually by 2030, and as much as 10 million tons by 2050, the second-largest stockpile of end-of-life panels in the world. China is out front. Most of what passes for solar panel recycling today involves peeling off the aluminum frame and shredding everything else. Glass accounts for 62% to 70% of a standard panel’s weight, and as much as 80% of a two-sided module, and it is typically used as low-grade sandblasting grit or landfill cover instead of going back into a furnace and on to be reused in a new panel. The silver and silicon, while small in weight but large in value, disappear in that mix, and they’re lost for further use.

The International Energy Agency’s Photovoltaic Power Systems Programme estimates that recovering end-of-life panel materials and re-injecting them into the economy could deliver more than $15 billion in value by 2050, along with enough raw material to build 2 billion new panels. We could have a circular system that delivers consistently increasing output, that is, energy output, as panel materials are reused. And the industry we stand up over the next decade will decide whether that value is captured or ground into dust.

My guest today has spent the last eight years building the version of recycling solar panels that can capture those materials. Brett Henderson is co-founder and CEO of SolarPanelRecycling.com, known as SPR, which owns and operates recycling plants in North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas, along with a new California facility that’s slated to open this year. Each is built to process about a million panels annually and to scale toward 3 million within just six months when capacity is needed as more panels are retired. SPR is a Solar Energy Industries Association-approved national recycler, and it partnered with SEIA on the first residential solar panel drop-off program in the United States.

Brett came to solar after 18 years in electronics recycling at Powerhouse Recycling, which is SPR’s parent company, and there he built programs for Fortune 100 companies, government agencies, and universities. The company started in 2018 — that’s SPR — when a longtime utility client called with 10,000 panels coming out of a power plant and nowhere to send them. Brett draws a hard line between true recycling, that is, the clean separation of glass, aluminum, silicon, and the metals into commodities that can be remanufactured or used in remanufacturing, and the shredding and downcycling that often passes for responsible disposal, which he labels as greenwashing. He has seen the cost of recycling at the plant fall by 42% over just three years as technology improved and volume grew. He argues that the economics are approaching the point where a landfill stops being the cheap option on price alone, and getting there is a business design problem. You have to decide what to own, what to build ahead of demand, and how to turn yesterday’s clean energy into tomorrow’s raw materials.

So, let’s find out how you build that business after a brief commercial break. Stay tuned.

Brett Henderson, welcome to Sustainability In Your Ear. How are you doing today?

Brett Henderson (4:44)

Great. Thanks for having me, Mitch.

Mitch Ratcliffe (4:45)

Well, thank you for joining us, diving into solar panel recycling in anticipation of a growing wave of material that’s going to be coming down the pike. In 2018, a utility client showed up at your office with 10,000 panels and nowhere to send them. I’m wondering what made you think at that point that solar recycling could be a standalone business rather than just a service line within a larger recycling organization.

Brett Henderson (5:10)

Yeah, absolutely. So I still have a dual role at the parent company that was presented that opportunity. It’s Powerhouse Recycling. It’s been operating about two decades in the electronics recycling and IT asset disposition space. So one of our longtime utility clients at that time, in 2018 — so at that point, if I’m doing my quick math, we’d been servicing them about 15 years — did indeed come to us, and they were pulling out about 10,000 panels from a power plant they had. And they went to market and recognized at that time that there really weren’t any options, you know, locally within the state or even in the entire U.S. market at that time. And what I mean by that is aluminum harvesting was happening. You know, anything that has aluminum, a nice metal to it, you could probably present it to a metal yard, they’ll capture that, but then the other, more technical or challenging portions might just go to landfill.

So this particular utility of ours is, as most are, really under the microscope on their environmental sustainability initiatives. So they came to us and said, do you kind of want to tackle this project together? So, you know, to answer your question, when it was first presented to me, you look at everything for a client, to service them well. But, kind of in the back of my mind, and full disclosure, um, how many solar panels are really out there? So…

Mitch Ratcliffe (6:36)

Yeah, well, that’s the question. I mean, you’re way ahead of the wave.

Brett Henderson (6:40)

Yeah, right. So we started diving into this and started recognizing that, you know, maybe shift the mind from solar panels on the residential rooftops and go, how many of these utility-scale solar facilities are out there? And you start diving into the numbers and start recognizing, you know, hundreds of millions of panels, right? And then really dive back into where our flagship facility was at the time and still is, in North Carolina. I start diving into that data and recognize that North Carolina was fourth in installations in the entire country. So it really kind of intrigued us to start going down this path and looking into it, and that’s kind of when the R&D began, if you will.

Mitch Ratcliffe (7:21)

Now, most panel recycling focuses on the metal, the aluminum that you mentioned a moment ago. But there’s glass, there’s silicon, there’s silver, and other materials. What’s the value of a panel, and where does that value come from?

Brett Henderson (7:35)

Yes. So you’ll hear a lot, whether it’s us speaking at trade shows or some of our marketing materials, or if it’s even behind closed doors when we’re really doing the environmental audits with our clients — really, this whole industry, it’s all about the glass. So in any recycling medium, you really need to look at what’s the composition of that item, that widget you’re trying to recycle, right? So in the electronics recycling world, where our parent company still lives today and my entire 18 years in the recycling industry has lived, there’s a wide range of compositions depending on what that electronic is. But when you really look at the solar side of things, it’s glass, right?

So a single-sided solar panel, which means glass on one side — if you flip it upside down, you’ll see the plastic backsheet — it’s anywhere between 62% to 70% glass by weight. Bifacial modules, which are the newest technology being installed at the moment, where there’s glass on both sides — it allows them to be a bit more efficient because they could capture sun from both ways — the composition could be up to 80%.

So the aluminum frame indeed matters. It helps drive the cost per module that you’re hitting at. The silver recovery indeed matters. But really, the glass is where it all lays. If you cannot recover the glass cleanly without contaminating it with silicon and silver and other metals, or the plastic backsheet, or the encapsulant, then how can you charge yourself with the mission of being a recycler if that portion is kind of being skipped just to get the low-hanging fruit, which is aluminum? So the module value comes from the aluminum and derives from the silver that’s recovered, but that’s helping subsidize the overall cost of recycling a panel, which is typically always going to be a negative value proposition because it’s mainly glass, right?

Mitch Ratcliffe (9:30)

That’s an interesting point, that it’s a negative value proposition. It’s not the kind of pitch you would normally make for a business. So how do you describe what SPR is selling? Is it a disposal service for the asset owner? Is it a commodity that you’re providing as a feedstock to manufacturers? Or is it providing compliance information? Or all three?

Brett Henderson (9:52)

A little of all three. I mean, what we kind of present it as is risk mitigation, right? And it’s not just risk mitigation from an environmental perspective, which we’ll dive into. It’s not just risk mitigation on a project timeline occurring or staying on track. And it’s not just risk mitigation on DOT compliance when you transport panels from facility to landfill, or facility to, hopefully, a recycler like us. So all of these things are important. So that’s really what you’re selling.

I give the analogy of a cardboard box, right? Cardboard can be recycled, should be recycled. A lot of households, a lot of businesses choose not to, because there’s not a whole lot of risk if you throw it in the landfill. There’s not regulation against it. You’re not worried about hazardous waste or universal waste being transported incorrectly. You’re not really even worried from a PR perspective of someone coming to your facility and saying, “Why aren’t you recycling your cardboard?” But when you flip that on the panel side — this is the service we’re selling and what our industry is selling — solar panels have a wide range of compositions to them. Some could be classified hazardous. Most, you do not have the information. So as it stands today, from a federal level, it’s deemed hazardous until proven otherwise.

So the option and the ability to just load up thousands and thousands of solar panels from your utility site, put them on a truck, transfer them to landfill, and dump them is opening up all sorts of generator liability. It’s opening up the DOT risk on how you transport and tag waste. So these are all the things that are why this service is being presented, and why a utility or an energy company is willing to be charged for that service.

Mitch Ratcliffe (11:35)

You’re describing a lot of different panel chemistries, a lot of different physical configurations. That requires a lot of specialized equipment. How do you maintain full utilization of that so that you’re actually earning the return you’re expecting?

Brett Henderson (11:49)

Absolutely. So, quite a few different ways. You know, first and foremost, R&D has to be ongoing, right? So the way a panel is being manufactured now, or even a future panel that is still in that manufacturer’s R&D phase, could be a wildly different composition, size, and technology than what’s hitting our recycling stream now. So we have a very strong team. It’s led by Finley Collins, our circularity research analyst, and she is consistently looking at what’s in the stream now, what is upcoming, and maybe even what are some of those technologies that are currently in the lab setting, so we could really be a bit proactive on what are going to be the challenges that are upcoming.

Then that has to coordinate — and part of my role as a quarterback of all of this — coordinate with our actual operations team and our engineers that have the current technology. Okay, our current recycling technology in our North Carolina plant, our Georgia plant, our Texas plant, our California plant that’s getting set to open: how is that going to handle the current panel compositions hitting the stream now, and ones that our clients are installing? Because, again, installation breakage could put a very new technology into the recycling stream right away. So it’s this juggling act and this balancing act to continuously invest, research, and make sure that you have opportunities to offer recycling for all panel types.

Mitch Ratcliffe (13:17)

Design for recyclability is really where we need to go as an economy more broadly. But if you could sit down with panel manufacturers today and say, you know, build it this way, we can recover a lot more material, what would you advise them to do? How would you suggest simplifying the designs for better recyclability?

Brett Henderson (13:35)

Yeah, this is a question that’s asked often, not just in the solar manufacturing and recycling spaces when they merge, but really dating back to, you know, you can look at car manufacturers and the right to repair, and electronics manufacturers. And it’s always a challenge for a recycler to really have that leverage and push that manufacturer to have those discussions, mainly because they have a duty to their stakeholders and their shareholders to make sure they’re manufacturing a product that lasts, manufacturing a product that meets consumer needs and is durable, right? So we’re kind of that person on their right shoulder, in their ear, that they kind of probably want to ignore a little bit at times.

That being said, on the solar space, there has been some level of engagement from some manufacturers. But how it stands now is, the United States needs a whole lot of power. That’s no mystery, you know, with data centers and AI really driving that, and then all sorts of the building and expansions. Anyone that could produce any type of energy really is holding the cards at the moment, and they have this core focus to meet demand and get panels, in this instance, out into the field to help support power needs. So as it stands now, there’s not a whole lot of leverage or thought put into that.

And the challenging part with solar is, it needs to be durable. It’s supposed to withstand extreme hail events, wind events, hurricanes, all sorts of natural disasters, or even just regular weather events. So by design, it needs to almost be challenging to break apart, right? And now analyze the problem when it comes to a recycling facility: our whole goal is to break it apart to all raw commodities and get those back into the stream. So there’s obviously wildly opposite goals and conflicting goals there that make that a challenge. Now, that being said, what we do have quite a bit of talks with the manufacturers about, and see some willingness to, is the information of the panel, which is still lacking and could really help be proactive in recycling.

Mitch Ratcliffe (15:42)

You mean in the product passport sense?

Brett Henderson (15:44)

Yeah, in a few different senses. One is a TCLP test, right? Would manufacturers be willing to say, this particular make and model, here’s its characteristics? Now we know it needs to be classified hazardous, or it doesn’t need to be classified hazardous. Because as it stands now, we have to get a physical panel from the field from one of our clients — knowing that they’re having an upcoming event or repower, or they just have some backlog ready to recycle — and we have to bring that in, grind that down, if you will, and get it to a lab to understand how to classify it, to really be compliant with DOT rules and all sorts of regulations. So a manufacturer could really assist in allowing the recyclers, and even the asset owners, to know what this panel is comprised of. Does the lead pass TCLP? Does it not pass TCLP? So you could classify this as waste when it comes to end of life.

And a second piece of information that could be super helpful is, again, we talked at the front end of this conversation how aluminum recovery and silver recovery is really what subsidizes the recycling costs. That determines if a panel is five to $7 to recycle, or higher or lower. So understanding the silver and some of the other metals that were utilized, by parts per million or by grams per metric ton — understanding the composition of that panel could also help make recycling costs more competitive, and then also help divert more panels from landfill to the recycling stream.

Mitch Ratcliffe (17:21)

Well, SPR owns and operates all four of the facilities that you operate, and you don’t broker materials out to scrapyards or haulers or anybody. I have to say, you know, ownership is obviously capital intensive, but what does vertical integration buy you that you couldn’t get from a network model?

Brett Henderson (17:39)

Yeah, seamless service is first and foremost. And what I mean by that is, let’s talk about repowers here. Let’s talk about installations. Really, it’s the same bucket, but we’ll do this under the guise of repower. So a repower is when a utility or an energy company is going, we have 100,000 panels in our field, they’re 200-watt panels, you can now get an 800-watt panel. So the math maths out for us to pull these panels out, you know, maybe much earlier than the 25-year span that they’re kind of advertised for, so we could get a four-times power generation there.

It’s a major undertaking. They’re going to do it in stages, so a lot of times the site doesn’t have to ever completely shut down. So why does end of life matter in that instance, and why does vertical integration matter? Is, they really need seamless service. If they have 20 truckloads of new panels arriving that day, and their contractor has 20 truckloads of old panels that need to go out that day — it’s not a warehouse, there’s not loading docks — there’s a lot of seamless service from a logistical standpoint that could really have high cost to a customer for not going off seamlessly. So us controlling that logistical network is just one of four or five reasons why this owned-and-operated model is very helpful to our clients.

Mitch Ratcliffe (18:58)

Does it make sense to start thinking about this as a full lifecycle integration opportunity? Should you be part of a panel company, or panel companies be co-invested across a variety of processors like you?

Brett Henderson (19:10)

I believe that we won’t probably see it get to that point. And if I understand your question, what maybe you’re hitting at here is circularity in the sense that the commodity comes from the panel and goes directly into panel manufacturing. Is this what you’re…

Mitch Ratcliffe (19:26)

Yeah, essentially stewardship of the material over many generations.

Brett Henderson (19:30)

Yeah. So, you know, I can’t speak for manufacturers if they want to get into the recycling space or partner directly with a recycler under some sort of joint venture, but I don’t see it having value to a manufacturer in terms of cost savings of getting a material recovered from a solar panel and put back into manufacturing. And the reason for that is the polysilicon that’s used to make the wafer itself. So obviously the panel can’t work if you don’t have good solar wafers. That has to be manufactured at a 6N purity, and that basically means 99.9999%. That’s where the 6N comes from, and the recycling space can’t generate that.

When they’re getting this pure polysilicon to manufacture solar wafers, there’s other types of agents and reactors and compositions baked into this, if you will. Now it’s not pure silicon. So when the recycling industry recovers it, that silicon could be used in a lot of other applications that don’t require 6N purity, but not solar manufacturing. So one of the biggest drivers of what makes the solar panel work all of a sudden still can’t go back into it.

And then there’s an economic side to it as well. Raw polysilicon is not the most expensive raw material. So the cost of — our industry, we partnered with some very brilliant researchers that have been working on this for years, and they could get it to that 6N purity, but the economics aren’t even close.

Mitch Ratcliffe (21:09)

Yeah, right. At the cost that it’s going to take, you wouldn’t be profitable. Yeah, there’s a lot to talk about here. Let’s take a quick commercial break, folks. We’ll be right back to continue the conversation with Brett Henderson of SolarPanelRecycling.com.

Welcome back to Sustainability In Your Ear. Let’s return to my conversation with Brett Henderson. He’s the co-founder and CEO of SPR, which you can find at solarpanelrecycling.com. They’re a North Carolina-based recycling company that’s partnered with the Solar Energy Industries Association to launch the nation’s first residential solar panel drop-off recycling program. Brett, you’ve reported that your recycling costs have fallen by 42% over the last 36 months. What are the factors that are driving that cost curve down?

Brett Henderson (21:57)

So there’s several things that really drove the 42% drop in costing, but the main one is the technological advances that we’ve had. We’re consistently investing in improving our recycling lines that are separating all of the commodities cleanly from the solar panel. So we used to make this joke starting in 2018, when we were under R&D stages and putting equipment in, that if you visited any of our facilities and came back six months later, you might see a wildly different line. And that was true for the better part of 2018 to 2023. Now, when you would come back, you’d see iterations of it, some add-ons, some movements, so you might not see a complete rip-up-the-script type of deal. But really, technological advances is what’s driving these costs down.

First and foremost, how many panels could get through a machine in a given hour is a large aspect of it. But more importantly is how cleanly are you recovering the silver, the aluminum, the items that have value, to really help cut into the cost of getting clean glass cullet out into the market, you know, the negative-valued items. So those technological advances have allowed us to recover higher returns on items and go direct to foundries, direct to consumers with our glass and aluminum and silver, and then also get cleaner commodity separation for even some of those negative-valued items to make sure that they’re consumed at a better rate. So technological advances is the largest one.

Second is just economies of scale, right? You know, when we first got into this space, we might have a month where we bring in 15,000, 25,000 panels, and then you have a month where we only bring in 5,000. Then you have a month where you have 50,000. Well, fast-forward to 2026, and we have all or some involvement with the largest utilities or energy companies in the United States, the largest asset owners. You have a little bit more consistency there in your volume coming through. So that allows us to go to market to these manufacturers that consume our generated commodities and (a) get better pricing because we’re giving them more consistent volume, or (b) even open up markets together, right? So, you know, Mitch, if you wanted to use recycled glass cullet in something that you’re manufacturing, you’re probably not going to really take a serious look at that and start adjusting your manufacturing line until companies like SPR could say, I could provide you 160 tons every other week of it, right? So some of those economies of scale is really what helps bring down the pricing as well.

Mitch Ratcliffe (24:25)

Well, and that volume has allowed you to offer the residential panel recycling service, which of course then gives you another source of supply. But tell us about that program, and where can people drop stuff off?

Brett Henderson (24:36)

Yeah, absolutely. So, again, a lot of the recycling industry, really in any recycling medium, but even more so solar, is really driven around high volume, large scale. So all of the focus and the R&D and the education outreach is really toward corporations, private equity, anyone that owns these assets, utilities, energy companies. So the residential sector was kind of left behind as this industry that’s in its infancy is growing.

So SEIA, which is the largest trade association for solar in the United States, came to us two years ago and said, we’re receiving maybe 15, 20, 25 calls sometimes a week from a homeowner saying, we have one panel, we have two panels, we really like recycling, we don’t want to throw it in the landfill. So they recognized our early-mover advantage as one of the thought leaders in this industry, as well as the fact that our parent company already has municipality convenience center logistics and trucks staged throughout the country for the electronics recycling side. So they came to us and said a natural fit would be for us to partner together and kind of do this first pilot to understand how many residential panels are actually in need of being recycled. Are they willing to load that one panel in the back of their car to bring it to a convenience center?

So we partnered with Mecklenburg County, which is the county that represents Charlotte, North Carolina, for a few reasons. One, they have five collection sites that we already service. We already have trucks and infrastructure there, so it could keep costs low for the pilot. Secondly, our flagship recycling facility is 45 minutes up the road from it. And third, North Carolina is fourth in installations of solar in the entire nation. So it felt like a natural fit.

So we ran this six-month pilot program, and we found out a few pieces of key information. There is a willingness to recycle, but not a whole lot of volume yet. We received about 19 panels. And if you think about it — we talked about repowers earlier — a utility that’s trying to generate as much energy as possible for the grid, it makes sense to pull out a panel early, because you’re swapping out a 200-watt for an 800-watt, for a times-four multiplier. But when your house system is designed, it’s kind of designed to run the power that’s needed for the house. So a homeowner’s mindset is quite the opposite: I want these to last even past the 25 years. If I’m lucky, they last 50 years. So really, what you’re seeing in the residential space now would have to be a failed panel, or something quite literally dropping from the sky to crack it, or a hail event. That’s really what’s hitting the stream. So there’s not a whole lot of volume yet, but there is a willingness from those that invested in solar on the rooftop to want to actually recycle it.

Mitch Ratcliffe (27:19)

You make this point about the static needs of a home — I know I need this many kilowatt-hours to power the house overall. That suggests that there might be a reselling opportunity in taking those repowered panels you were talking about and making them available to residential buyers who do look for the 25 years that the utility is not interested in because they’re interested in maximum output. Is that a potential new direction for us to think about, repurposing some retired utility-scale solar panels?

Brett Henderson (27:52)

Yes. So we talk quite a bit on this. Finley Collins, who I mentioned earlier, our circularity research analyst, wrote a wonderful white paper on the challenges of reuse and repurpose. You know, any of the listeners are welcome to reach out on our website and request it. But there is an opportunity to reuse solar panels. Right now, in the market, though, it’s a little bit of greenwashing in the sense of really what that market could consume, and I’ll tell you why.

A solar panel isn’t plug-and-play. They’re not homogenous in their size, their width, their depth, their wattage, what inverter box, what string inverters it needs, the racking. So what happens is, when we have a utility take out 100,000 panels that still have life left on them, there could be an opportunity when you’re talking five panels, 10 panels, maybe for the DIYer to take that one panel and rig it on their RV. But this kind of notion that it’s going to put really any type of dent or percentage in panels from the recycling stream, to reuse, is quite flawed for that reason, right? And so utility-scale panels are typically heavier and larger, so the odds of it going on a rooftop application for a home is probably little to none. But that home might not have been developed yet, their system, and then they could consider something like that.

But, you know, when we’re talking about repowers — we’re under a repower right now that’s a million panels plus coming out, over the course of a few years as they’re doing it in stages — we get asked that all the time. Can’t you take these 1.2 million panels and put them overseas in an area that can’t afford it? And the challenge with that is, it has to be an engineered setup. You have to get the right racking, and then there’s a lot of interconnection rules about putting a used panel onto the grid. In the U.S., for example, the UL rating, once that panel is used and off of its initial application, the UL rating is no longer valid. So that’s just one of many problems of taking used panels and getting permitted to put a used panel back on the grid by the millions, by the hundreds of thousands — not for the DIYer that might want to put it on his or her RV.

Mitch Ratcliffe (30:14)

So 31 states have some form of decommissioning policy today. From a business design standpoint, which policies do you see actually creating functioning markets? Is it the landfill bans? The bonding requirements? Is it extended producer responsibility? And are there policies that just create paperwork?

Brett Henderson (30:33)

Yeah. So landfill bans is where we stand on this topic. We’re asked it quite often. I’ve spoken on the legislative floor in North Carolina for their economic review commission a few years back. Another partner of ours, Steven Turk, actually spoke up on Capitol Hill on this topic a little bit. But we see a landfill ban really being the one that would create the most action.

EPR is a very challenging thing to do in this space. You know, these panels might be installed for five years, 10 years, with the goal of them being 25 years, right? So how do we set up this EPR system when there could be a 25-year lifecycle for it? That creates some challenges. But even more so, we talked earlier about the leverage of this whole thing. There’s probably not going to be a tremendous amount of states willing to say to the manufacturer — which, by the way, most manufacturers are overseas still — that you’re not going to supply power to our state, even though the whole country is in need of as much power as possible, because you’re not helping fund recycling.

The state of Washington put in an EPR program for solar, and they had to extend the timeline for manufacturers to apply to it, because only one manufacturer actually went through the paperwork and applied to be compliant in it by its first deadline. So I think that’s just one example of why EPR might be a challenge.

So really, landfill bans is the largest thing that would drive it, as well as decommissioning, bonding, and insurance requirements. When we first got into the space, we would be presenting at a trade show, and someone would come up and say, hey, we’re trying to get this project permitted, and our locality needs to understand what the cost would be to return the land back to use. And they were tagging these as a positive: we’re going to take this equipment out, whether it’s five years, 10 years, 40 years down the road, and all the infrastructure is going to net positive value back, so we don’t need bonding, we don’t need insurance. And the education has kind of shifted that mentality now, where there are very few localities that aren’t onto that. So I think the landfill ban and the bonding and insurance requirements is really what would drive panels from going from landfill to recycling stream.

Mitch Ratcliffe (32:55)

Now, your bottom line is exposed to commodity price swings, like for aluminum and silver that we’ve been talking about. Can a recycler actually build a business model that survives a commodity price downturn?

Brett Henderson (33:06)

It can, because in this instance, again, it’s a service charge for that risk mitigation. So right now, the recycling industry is still in its infancy stages with solar. So we are generating our own black book, if you will, of knowing this make and model recovers X amount of grams per metric ton of silver, and this make and model has X amount of tons of aluminum, and here’s the aluminum composition. When this builds out five years, 10 years, 15 years, we might be able to get really granular with the commodity market and say, well, this particular panel, we could actually be 80% under what we normally charge because we know it has higher silver recovery, we know the aluminum frame is heavier.

But right now, unless there’s just an absolute crash in silver and aluminum, the commodity market — we have to kind of take a bearish look at it when we’re pricing, because, again, to hit on what we said before, the manufacturers don’t tell you what the composition of these are. So there’s a wide range of silver recovery. So we can’t just take the extreme side of that and say every single solar panel is going to recover X amount of silver, or you could find yourself in a challenging situation where you can’t scale.

So aluminum and silver markets do matter. Both were inflated. Silver’s back down a little bit, back down to earth. But for a while, that did cause us to be a little bit more bullish in our pricing and come down lower. But for the most part, the way the industry is set up, a little bit of volatility in that isn’t going to change the pricing, because most of that’s going to be on the transportation costs to get the panel from site to facility, as well as the processing costs.

Mitch Ratcliffe (34:45)

Now, as we’ve been talking, we’ve referred repeatedly to the future wave of material that’s coming, and you need to build capacity to get ready for that. You’re expecting that repowering, as we’ve been talking about, is going to increase from about 10% of the supply to 80% of the volume in five years. How do you get the investment, the financing, in place to build that capacity when the demand hasn’t arrived?

Brett Henderson (35:09)

The level of risk and putting the cart before the horse is probably the most simplified answer to that, and we have that. We’re very bullish on this industry. I think our background of being one of the nation’s largest electronics recyclers — it kind of has a similar arc to where that started. It was unregulated. There was sham recycling going on. Then it becomes regulated. Then you recognize how much volume of electronics are hitting. We have a little bit more of a bullish take on solar because we’ve seen that, and we think there’s a lot of synergies and similarities to that.

So we’re investing in owned-and-operated facilities and regions. As soon as we have a partner that might have only 100,000 panels that we’re contracted to take, we’re willing to maybe invest in that to build out our network ahead of all of these repowers hitting. But you are right, it is capital intensive. You have to have wonderful partners. Our parent company is what’s funding most of it. We have some other private investments at times. But again, we want to build out this infrastructure so that when that wave hits, we’re ready to absorb as many of those panels as we could be offered. We don’t want to be in that position where we’re turning down multimillion-panel repowers because we’re just building out our second facility.

The other side of that is, all of our facilities are being built with more added capacity that could get online much quicker. So the longer and more capital-intensive buildout is the actual facility, the land, the permitting, getting that first line in there, getting the training, the labor. You know, it’s a new industry. We can’t go to the industry and find someone that said, hey, I worked for a solar panel recycler the last 20 years. So there’s a lot of education and training. So once we’re having those built out — we did it in North Carolina first, then Georgia, then Texas, California slated to open in 2026 — all of these are being built where, okay, those have a capacity right now of 1 million panels a year, but it can quickly scale to 3 million panels a year within six months. So that’s the other side of, as you’re building out this network, is put the new spots, or put the new regional locations out there, but also make sure that those could quickly scale for more capacity.

Mitch Ratcliffe (37:16)

So you just described enough capacity to address what the EPA projects is going to be happening by mid-century. By 2050, they’re estimating about 10 million tons a year of panels are going to be coming back for recycling. Play this all forward to 2036. How many facilities, what policy frameworks, and what commodity markets are going to have developed as a result of this massive wave of new solar panels needing recycling?

Brett Henderson (37:42)

Yeah, a quick aside on the math of that. So the recycling world is always operating in tons or pounds when it comes to capacities, when it comes to recycling throughput and output. What I was just referring to was panel count. So, you know, 1 million panels annually, scalable to 3 million panels. And that was kind of driven off of the asset owners — you know, they speak in watts, right, how much is it per watt — so we kind of met in the middle there and kind of helped guide the industry to say, let’s do per-panel costing, let’s do per-panel quotes. The report you’re referring to, for 10 million metric tons — now you’re talking about 393 million panels.

Mitch Ratcliffe (38:29)

So, okay, so there’s plenty of room for growth.

Brett Henderson (38:30)

Yes, yeah. So, exactly. So, you know, we obviously want to capture as much of that as possible, but we’re not the only game in town. We won’t be the only game in town. But we want to build regionally to make sure that we have a competitive advantage from the logistical cost, so that client wants to push their panels through our facilities versus elsewhere. Logistics, nine times out of 10, is going to be the highest cost in recycling a panel, more so than the processing fees.

Mitch Ratcliffe (38:57)

To your point, there is no way of projecting the future value of a used panel. Should that be one of the focuses of the industry, to begin to provide the accounting to panel acquirers so that they can plan the full lifecycle? And would you share your data in order to help establish that standard?

Brett Henderson (39:16)

Yeah, the short of that is, we already have been developing that. We have some 3D mapping capabilities in all of our facilities, so anytime we get a panel in, we run these panels through so we can understand its true composition, because the manufacturers are not sharing that. So now we know this particular make and model has X amount of grams per metric ton of silver, it has this amount of weight of aluminum. So now we have this black book, if you will, that we already are developing, and, you know, R&D started in 2018, so we already have eight years of this. And we do already share that with our onboarded, signed clients.

Putting that out in the ethos would be wild for us to do at the moment, because we have that competitive advantage of doing this the right way from day one, where we could actually gather this data. At some point — whether, you know, you’re referencing 2036 — at some point there’ll be enough recyclers, I’ve been doing it long enough, that maybe that information isn’t so proprietary, that there’s value for our team to kind of be the home of that information and provide that to the public. But right now our clients are already receiving that service. And to be fair, there’s so many different makes and models that that service isn’t utilized 100% of the time, right? Like, a lot of these panels coming through, we’re going, that’s the first time we’ve had that. Let us bring this in and get you some good information on it.

Mitch Ratcliffe (40:38)

It is reminiscent of the emergence of standards across information technology as well. But in order for us to have a functioning and predictable circular economy, this information ultimately is going to become commonplace.

Brett Henderson (40:51)

Right.

Mitch Ratcliffe (40:52)

You don’t lose an advantage in that case, but you have had the opportunity to lead the industry toward those standards, and that could cement your leadership. Is that the kind of strategy that SPR is thinking about, or are you going to hunker down and keep it private in order to maintain that advantage?

Brett Henderson (41:12)

Absolutely. So we have always wanted to position ourselves as a thought leader. I think we’ve had a lot of early success in this industry due to our transparency. Here’s the issues. Here’s how you should audit a recycler. Here’s the right questions you should be asking. Because in an industry that doesn’t have any certifications or standards yet, we wanted to be the one driving it the right way. If we lose a deal because we know someone’s bringing that panel in, harvesting the aluminum frame, and landfilling the other 90%, and then they could offer free recycling or even pay back a few dollars — we’re fine losing those deals now, because we have been through this arc of what you see in our electronics recycling.

So we’re going to continuously be that thought leader and driving the industry the correct way. So, yeah, we would absolutely share that information. We do share a good bit of information publicly, you know, such as this white paper I’ve referred to that already is doing a lot of groundwork for people entering the space. But right now, as it stands today, there’s a lot of institutional knowledge that went into developing the specifics of actual panels, that we would present that to the market when it’s the right time.

Mitch Ratcliffe (42:21)

So we’re in the early chapters of this story, and people are going to want to understand what you’re learning. How can they follow your work?

Brett Henderson (42:27)

Yeah, so we’re quite active on LinkedIn. I think that’s probably the best space. We have a wonderful marketing team, as well as what we like to joke about here, that we really like to geek out on this stuff. We don’t want to market our way into recycling. We want our information to be clean, transparent, and knowledgeable. We’ll talk about what’s great about it. We’ll talk about the challenges about it. So a lot of that could be followed through that.

We’re at typically most regional and national trade shows. We speak often at them. We have a team that’s working on white papers, case studies. All these things are kind of readily available. We’re across a lot of the different social channels where those could be found, or on our website you could sign up for a newsletter that kind of guides some of these out as well. But I really would say LinkedIn and signing up for that newsletter is probably the easiest and quickest way to absorb all the information we’re putting out there.

Mitch Ratcliffe (43:21)

Well, Brett, thanks for sharing the story. It’s been a fascinating conversation.

Brett Henderson (43:25)

Yeah, thank you, Mitch. It’s always wonderful to talk about it. Anytime you’re in an industry that’s really in its infancy, the opportunities that you’re giving for this subject to come to light are equally as important. So thank you for that opportunity.

Mitch Ratcliffe (43:43)

Welcome back to Sustainability In Your Ear. You’ve been listening to my conversation with Brett Henderson, co-founder and CEO of SolarPanelRecycling.com, known in the industry as SPR, a company that owns and operates recycling plants in North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas, along with a new California facility opening this year. You can learn more about Brett and SPR at solarpanelrecycling.com. Solarpanelrecycling is all one word, no space, no dash: solarpanelrecycling.com.

So, reflecting on that conversation, the number that I’m thinking about is 42%, and that’s not just because 42 was Douglas Adams’ answer to the meaning of the universe. It represents how far the cost of recycling a panel the right way has fallen at SPR over the past 36 months, and it points to continued efficiency gains. No subsidy produced that. No mandate produced that. It came from rebuilding processing systems to separate clean glass, aluminum, and silver reliably enough to sell, and with enough steady volume to negotiate better prices with buyers who are seeking reliable material sources.

Brett’s candid that recycling a solar panel still remains a negative value proposition on the face of it, because a panel is mostly glass, and glass is cheap. The business he’s describing also sells risk mitigation to utilities that cannot afford a truckload of possibly hazardous waste ending up in the wrong place, so they take it and recycle it and get a fee for taking it away as well. The recovered materials subsidize the rest, and when revenue streams converge, that is what an industry looks like at the moment it starts to work.

The panel recycling wave is already building, and the recycling infrastructure is being built ahead of it. Brett’s plants are each built to run about a million panels a year, and to scale toward 3 million in just six months when panel retirements grow. And he’s financing that capacity before the volume arrives, largely off his parent company’s balance sheet. Now, that’s a real bet with a real downside. If repowering economics soften, that capital is just going to be sitting there not earning a return. But the alternative is an industry that turns away million-panel contracts because it was waiting for proof. Every array going up right now, including, for instance, the tribal solar power projects that Cody Two Bears of Indigenized Energy described on a recent show, is tomorrow’s feedstock for the next generation of panels and other products. Somebody has to build the receiving end of the circular economy first, and SPR is doing it, at least for solar panels.

The polysilicon in a solar wafer has to hit 6N purity. That’s 99.9999%, and recovered silicon currently can’t achieve those levels at a price anyone would pay. The glass comes back clean enough for foundries and other manufacturers, but not for new module glass. So the panel currently does not close its own loop, and Brett said so frankly. This is a most useful correction to how we think about circularity. A solar panel is an industrial object made of several materials that each have their own best destination, and the discipline that matters is clean separation, not sentimental attachment to a closed loop. So you have to take apart your thinking about circularity and reassemble it to make sense in the context that it actually exists. Amy Fernandez and Zach Lauer of Trex, the decking company, made the same case when we talked about polyethylene film recently on another show. The best source of feedstock for Trex turned out to be its retired decking, not solely collecting more polyethylene film. So for the time being, we have to judge a recycler, at least a solar panel recycler, on whether the glass they process leaves uncontaminated, not whether it goes back to where it came from — in other words, another panel.

The last idea of note is what all of this is for. Materials recovered from retired panels are materials that do not need to be mined, refined, and produced, so you don’t have to do as much damage to the environment, and you use a lot less energy. The estimated value of recoverable materials in end-of-life solar panels could exceed $15 billion by 2050. That’s enough raw material for 2 billion new panels, the basis for a robust industry, too. But that value will be realized only if someone will buy it, and that’s because end markets are built on reliability.

Mitch Ratcliffe (48:06)

Brett put this plainly: a manufacturer will not retool their line to use recycled glass until the supplier can promise 160 tons of it every other week. New rules can move that volume faster than prices. The European Union requires producers to finance collection and recycles the majority of its retired panels. On the other hand, the United States, without these regulations, recovers only 10%. The proposed EPA universal waste rule for panels has slipped again and is now expected, or rather not expected, until next year. Brett’s read on that is that landfill bans plus bonding and insurance requirements at the permitting stage of a solar project will do more than extended producer responsibility to drive recycling success. Regulation can create industries, not just destroy them, as critics often argue.

So we need to watch three things over the next 24 months: whether more states ban panels from landfills, whether decommissioning bonds become standard in project permitting, and whether the per-panel composition data — that is, what panels are made of — that recyclers are compiling privately becomes a shared standard, so everybody can begin to recognize the value in these materials based on a common understanding of that value. Those three will decide whether the next 393 million panels become raw material or just cover in a landfill. And we’re going to continue to track the story.

If this conversation changed how you think about the array on your roof or the one going up down the road, send it to someone who’s about to install solar, or leave a review wherever you’re listening. You folks are the amplifiers that can spread more ideas to create less waste. There are more than 560 episodes waiting in the Sustainability In Your Ear archive, and you’ll find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Audible, or whatever purveyor of podcast goodness you prefer. Thank you for your support.

I’m Mitch Ratcliffe. This is Sustainability In Your Ear, and we will be back with another innovator interview soon. In the meantime, folks, take care of yourself, take care of one another, and let’s all take care of this beautiful planet of ours. Have a green day.

The post Sustainability In Your Ear: Building Solar Panel Recycling Capacity with SPR’s Brett Henderson appeared first on Earth911.

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Guest Idea: Green Bins Are Spreading Faster Than the Habit of Using Them

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Editor’s Note: This is a sponsored posting.

Curbside food scrap collection has spread fast. BioCycle’s nationwide survey counted 14.9 million U.S. households with access to food waste collection in 2023, up 49 percent from 10 million two years earlier.

Getting those bins used is the harder part. Reported participation runs from near-universal in a handful of cities to under 30 percent in others. That gap matters. Food waste is about 24 percent of what U.S. municipal landfills take in, and the EPA estimates it accounts for 58 percent of the fugitive methane those landfills release. An unused green bin isn’t a neutral outcome.

Quick definition first, since the name varies. The green bin is the curbside cart for household organics: food scraps, plus yard trimmings and food-soiled paper depending on your program. It’s collected separately from trash and recycling and sent to a composting or anaerobic digestion facility instead of a landfill. It isn’t green everywhere. Toronto runs a Green Bin program, New York City uses brown ones, and elsewhere it’s the organics cart, the compost cart, or the food scraps cart. What matters is where the material ends up, not the color.

Why People Quit the Green Bin

Households opt out for a long list of reasons: confusion about what’s accepted, forgetting collection day, plain inconvenience. I’d add one that gets less attention because it’s unglamorous. The bin gets disgusting, cleaning it turns into a recurring chore, and eventually the chore wins.

I’ll be straight that this is a hypothesis, not a documented finding. I haven’t found a study that isolates bin cleaning as a reason people quit. What I’ve got is the pattern I hear from customers constantly. But there’s evidence that making the job less unpleasant moves the numbers.

In 2023–24, Essex County Council in the UK ran a year-long Food Recycling Project. It delivered a package to more than 375,000 households: a sticker for the general waste bin, an information leaflet, and a free roll of compostable liners. Food recycling tonnage rose an average of 21 percent against a control group in the first three months after delivery, more than double the council’s 10 percent target.

The liners were one piece of that package, running alongside a media campaign, so the case study can’t tell us how much of the gain they drove on their own. What it does show is that handing people a tool to keep the mess contained belongs in the mix alongside better signage. It also shows the limit. Free liner giveaways are a subsidy most households will never get.

So the question isn’t whether a cleaner, contained bin helps people stick with the program. Plainly it does. The question is how you get there when nobody’s handing out free bags. That’s the gap BagEZ fills.

Set up in under a minute: pull the bag through, over the frame, clip it on, hang it in the bin. Photo: BagEZ

Doing More With Less

BagEZ holds a standard bag open inside the green bin, 13 gallons (49 liters) and up. Food scraps go into the bag, not against the cart. Everything stays contained, and the bin stays clean and dry. That’s aimed straight at the reason people give up: the cleaning.

It’s a folding steel rack with clips that lock the bag to the frame. The handles grip the bin’s rim and hold the bag open and suspended. On collection day you pull off the clips, seal the bag, and lift out the frame before setting the bin at the curb.

The size is up to you, and the data says most kitchens don’t need much. The MITRE-Gallup survey, the largest U.S. household food-waste study to date, surveyed nearly 10,000 households and put the average household’s food waste at 6.2 cups a week, or about 8.8 cups once you count peels, cores, and bones. That’s a bit over half a gallon. Even a household running well above average isn’t close to filling a big curbside cart with food scraps. So size the bag to your kitchen, not your bin. A 13-gallon bag is plenty for most households, it costs less than lining a full cart, and a right-sized bag is also what makes the odor tricks below work. Size up if your program takes yard trimmings too, or if collection runs every other week.

One caveat before you change anything: check what your program accepts. Liner rules vary a lot across North America. Some programs take certified compostable bags only, some want paper or newspaper, some want food scraps loose in the cart. A bag your hauler doesn’t accept can get your cart skipped and the whole load flagged for contamination. Earth911’s recycling search is a good place to start: earth911.com/recycling-search

The frame folds flat, and the clips lock any accepted bag to it. Photo: BagEZ

After collection, a wipe with vinegar and water handles anything that’s built up. On a bin that’s stayed dry, that’s a seasonal job, not a weekly one, and you never have to drag out the hose.

The Green Bin Yuck Factor

Ever notice the puddle in the bottom of your countertop organics caddy after you pull the bag? That’s mostly moisture coming out of the food itself. Produce is largely water, and as it breaks down that water gets released.

The same thing happens in the curbside bin, at a bigger scale. Bags of scraps keep releasing moisture as they sit, and when a bag rests against the bottom and sides of the bin, that liquid builds up into the sticky residue that smells and makes the bin dirty.

BagEZ works differently because the bag never touches the bin. The frame holds it up and lets air move all the way around: underneath, the sides, everywhere. Condensation on the outside of the bag has nowhere to pool. It evaporates instead of collecting at the bottom, and the walls stay dry.

A right-sized bag makes the odor tricks work better, too. A sprinkle of baking soda in the small contained space around the bag does more than the same sprinkle spread thin across a big empty floor. Less smell, fewer flies. Fewer flies, no maggots.

Some people use food-grade diatomaceous earth against fly larvae. DE works by drying insects out, and it stops working the moment it gets wet, so a dry bin is a precondition for it doing anything at all. Same story as the baking soda: it only earns its keep in a dry, contained gap.

Two more that help, cheap. A few sheets of newspaper under the bag catch drips if a bag ever fails. And a cloth sachet of peppermint and cloves tied to the outside of the bin throws off raccoons and rodents, which hunt almost entirely by smell. A bin that doesn’t smell like food stops being worth their trouble.

Without BagEZ: odor, cleanup, pests. With BagEZ: contained waste, a dry bin, fewer visitors. Photo: BagEZ

Why It Works

The infrastructure is already there. The bins are at the curb, the trucks run, and the environmental case, going by the numbers up top, isn’t in question. What’s been missing is a cheap, fast way to keep the bin clean enough that people don’t quietly give up on it.

A reusable steel frame that holds a bag open sounds too simple to matter. That’s sort of the point. The bin stays clean, the habit stays easy, and food scraps end up where they’re meant to.

Set it next to the alternatives and the difference is in how each one works. Bin cleaning services deal with the problem after it happens, on a schedule, for a recurring fee. Full-size liners cost money every week and are sized to the bin, not to what you actually throw out. A frame is a one-time buy that works with the bag size your household already uses.

Three ways to handle organics, compared. Source: BagEZ.

A green bin program only works if people keep using it, and people keep using what doesn’t gross them out. That’s the hinge the whole thing turns on. Take away the wet mess on the walls and most of the reasons to quit go with it: nothing pooling at the bottom, nothing to hose out, no smell pulling animals across the yard. The bin stays clean on its own, week after week, with a bag you were going to buy anyway.

Size it to your kitchen instead of your bin, clip it to the frame, and the green bin stops being the chore you avoid. Find it at bagez.com.

About the Author

This sponsored article was written by Sean Rana, the founder of BagEZ, a Canadian company behind the steel hanging bag frame that keeps garbage and green bins clean without special liners or ongoing costs, and works for waste and storage on the go.

The post Guest Idea: Green Bins Are Spreading Faster Than the Habit of Using Them appeared first on Earth911.

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Sustainability In Your Ear: David Fenton on How to Win the Climate Debate

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Yale researchers estimate that roughly 80 million Americans are alarmed about climate change. About 40 million of them say they want to be politically active on the issue. But only about 3 million actually are. When that 37 million-American group is asked why they aren’t active, researchers most often hear that nobody has asked them. That’s the focus of this week’s conversation on Sustainability In Your Ear. Only 12% of Americans say they ever see anything about climate change on social media, and two-thirds say they rarely or never hear about it from friends or in the media. At the same time, the fossil fuel industry treats persuasion as core business. David Fenton calls the situation unilateral disarmament at a moment when an information war is needed. The crowning result of climate action to date is the Inflation Reduction Act that passed by one vote and was repealed by one vote. A bill you win by a single vote, he says, is a bill you never really won David founded Fenton Communications in 1982, the first public relations firm in America built solely for progressive causes. His campaigns helped free Nelson Mandela and end apartheid, helped ban fracking in New York, where Yoko Ono’s “Imagine There’s No Fracking” billboard went up along Governor Andrew Cuomo’s commute, and helped launch fossil fuel divestment with the heirs to the Standard Oil fortune as the messengers. His book, The Activist’s Media Handbook: Lessons from Fifty Years as a Progressive Agitator, includes a foreword by cognitive linguist George Lakoff, who we discuss at length in this thought-provoking interview.

David Fenton, founder of Fenton Communications and host of The Fenton Forecast, is our guest on Sustainability In Your Ear.

He places the blame on climate advocacy spending and, more importantly, the words used to frame the issue. The climate NGO and philanthropic world spends billions a year on policy, law, and science, and spends on communication mainly to raise money from people already on its lists. David traces that to what Lakoff calls the Enlightenment fallacy, the belief that a strong idea reproduces itself because it is correct, and to its corollary, that selling ideas is dirty work beneath serious people. The second is vocabulary. “Net Zero means almost nothing to most people. “Carbon” sounds like an abstraction. And “justice,” in cognitive research, evokes images of the police and courts, not of fairness and a shared mission. We need to pivot to simpler language, like “pollution,” when describing the source of global warming. Pollution is a word nobody defends, and a blanket of pollution trapping heat that would otherwise escape into space is a picture people can easily grasp and act on.

Asked how to solve climate change, the most common answer Americans give is “reduce, reuse, and recycle.” Earth911 has spent three decades on that vocabulary, and it holds up on its own terms as a materials strategy. Increased curbside recycling participation rates don’t necessarily lead to decarbonizing the grid or the truck fleets. David Fenton’s prescription for listeners is blunter than any campaign plan: talk about it, post about it, and press the funders you know to spend generating public demand for change rather than direct mail fundraising. Learn more about David’s work at davidfentonactivist.com, and find his podcast at fentonforecast.com.

Interview Transcript

Mitch Ratcliffe  0:09
Hello. Good morning. Good afternoon. Or good evening, wherever you are on this beautiful planet of ours. Welcome to Sustainability In Your Ear. This is the podcast conversation about accelerating the transition to a sustainable, carbon-neutral society, and I’m your host, Mitch Ratcliffe. Thank you for joining the conversation today. Let’s talk about how to win the fight for planet and people. We already know what to do about climate change. The clean energy solutions exist. They’re the cheapest form of power on Earth, and the warning signs, from fires and floods to the rising costs of food and insurers walking away from whole regions, are impossible to miss. And yet, after decades of effort, only about a quarter of Americans are deeply engaged with the urgency of climate action, and just half are even concerned. So here’s the puzzle that my guest today, David Fenton, has wrestled for more than 50 years. If the danger is this clear and the answers are this good, why has the movement failed to bring the public along?

Part of the answer is that we’re making the case in openly hostile territory. Federal climate policy has been rolled back. The fossil fuel industry has spent decades manufacturing doubt about global warming, and its allies are ready to blame wind and solar within hours of any grid emergency, whether or not the facts support it. The social platforms where most people get their news quietly bury anything labeled climate, showing it only to the people who already agree. And if you’re a climate-concerned person, the audiences that you most need to reach will never see those messages. As David puts it, we’re in a propaganda war with the fossil fuel industry, and we’re not even on the battlefield.

David Fenton has spent his life trying to change that. He started as a teenage high school dropout, shooting photographs of the anti-war movement and the Black Panthers for the underground press in the 1960s. He co-produced the No Nukes concert at Madison Square Garden, and in 1982 he founded Fenton Communications, the first public relations firm in America built solely for progressive causes.

Over four decades, his work has helped free Nelson Mandela and end apartheid, helped ban fracking in New York, and helped launch the fossil fuel divestment movement in partnership with the Rockefellers. In fact, the heirs to the Standard Oil fortune as the messengers for the movement. And now he’s distilled it all into a book called The Activist’s Media Handbook: Lessons from Fifty Years as a Progressive Agitator. And that includes a foreword by cognitive linguist George Lakoff. We’re going to explore how to speak to people’s hearts before their heads, and why “make polluters pay” travels farther than “net zero by 2050,” as well as how to fight disinformation when a lie outruns the truth, and how to win over conservatives without bending the facts. So, what does a lifetime of victories and hard-won failures teach us about protecting the planet and democracy itself in this pivotal moment? Let’s find out after this brief commercial break.

David Fenton, welcome to Sustainability In Your Ear. How are you doing today?

David Fenton  3:15
I’m feeling sustained. Thank you. How are you? Sustained.

Mitch Ratcliffe  3:17
Good. I’m doing well. It’s a beautiful day here in southern Oregon, and I know in Berkeley it’s probably a nice morning as well.

David Fenton  3:25
It’s a little foggy, and that’s good. We are avoiding the heat waves of the rest of the country.

Mitch Ratcliffe  3:30
Twain’s observation about San Francisco is always kind of a satisfying one when you get there, but you hear about it and you think, “Gosh, it must be cold.”

David Fenton  3:38
Yeah, well, colder is a little better right now, given what’s going on in our overheated world.

Mitch Ratcliffe  3:44
Absolutely. Hey, look, you’ve spent 50 years working on trying to change the world, to put it mildly. And in the book, you turn the lens on the movement itself, calling the climate crisis the biggest communication failure in the history of progressive advocacy. Why does so much of the fault lie on our side of the conversation?

David Fenton  4:04
Well, it’s not only on our side, but everybody talks correctly about the fault of the corporate polluting interests that have confused everybody and spread all this propaganda and intentional lying, the biggest criminals of all time, in my opinion, at least measured by impact, but our movement bears some responsibility also. You know, I mean, just look at the data. You know, only 12% of Americans say they ever see anything at all about climate change on social media, their main source of news increasingly. Only, let’s say, two thirds, according to the Yale research, say they rarely or never see or hear anything about climate change from their friends or in the media.

You know, the environmental groups do a lot of great things: policy, law, science. But they don’t communicate. They don’t spend money on communicating, by and large, even though they’re very wealthy. They have huge budgets. They don’t value that, you know. As we all know, they only go out to communicate with their members to raise money, not to educate or get people involved in action. When people say that they rarely or never see or hear anything about this, that’s a failure.

And at the same time, the fossil fuel industry is very focused on propaganda and communication. They’re building up all these online influencers. They’ve always had a natural focus on this, and we’re practicing what, in the main, I would call a unilateral disarmament in the information wars. And you know, you can’t decarbonize the economy at the speed we need to according to physics without the public being on board. You know, we saw this when Biden’s Inflation Reduction Act passed by only one vote, and when you win only by one vote, you’ve won nothing permanent. And in my opinion, it’s an indicator that you have not done enough to get the public on your side, and that’s why Trump was able to repeal most of it by one vote. So if we’re winning and losing by one vote, we’re losing.

Mitch Ratcliffe  6:22
But do you feel, because of the one vote that still separates the two sides of the country, so to speak, that there is a lot of opportunity for real permanent change still ahead?

David Fenton  6:33
Absolutely. You know, I’m very optimistic because you know the data shows we can help people understand what this is simply, in ways that speak to their concerns about their health and their children and their property and their jobs and their prosperity and their security. But we don’t, by and large. I mean, first of all, we don’t reach people hardly at all, and then when we do, our language is an obstacle. We do not speak in terms that people can understand or that speak to their values and their everyday concerns. You know, like take the term net zero. Nobody knows what the hell that means. You know, people really do not know what carbon is, sorry. And so the whole, you know, and climate justice, that’s another one. You know, as I tell people, if you want climate justice, please don’t call it that, because nobody knows what it means. And you know, if you look at the science of cognition and linguistics, when you say the word justice, what comes into people’s head is the police and the court. So you’re confusing the hell out of people.

Now, when you talk about pollution, which is the cause of this, everybody knows what you’re talking about. And the other great thing about the word pollution is that no one will ever defend it. Pollution is never good. No one ever likes it. So, you know, we know from the research that the best language and imagery to explain what we’re doing to the Earth to people is that we have put a blanket of pollution around the Earth that’s trapping heat that used to go back out to space, and everybody can see that. That activates existing mental frames. People know what pollution is. They know what a blanket looks like. They know what a blanket does. It traps heat. So all that heat energy that used to go back out to space is now making it hotter, duh. So that’s how we need to talk about this, but we don’t.

So another thing, you know, stop me from rambling on here too much, is that people learn from influencers and characters and personalities, and we don’t build hardly any up. Al Gore has, you know, long faded from predominant view. Bless him, he did a great job. But where are influencers? You know, we have them in the wings, and we have no infrastructure to create more visibility for them, and we don’t think it’s important. So you know, I’ve written about, why is this? Why does the climate community, the vast NGO and philanthropic enterprise behind it, and it is vast, it’s very, you know, it’s many billions of dollars a year, why, excuse me, why doesn’t it value communicating and getting the public on board to demand change?

So, the best answer I’ve found comes from the great Berkeley linguist George Lakoff, and he says that people who study the humanities, the sciences, and the law (I’m talking to you, Bill Gates) have what Lakoff calls the Enlightenment fallacy.

That is the idea that a great piece of science or a great policy idea is going to magically reproduce itself because of its sheer intrinsic engineering brilliance, and this is a false view. The world does not work that way, and there is a corollary view to the Enlightenment fallacy, which is that selling ideas is dirty, manipulative, and beneath us, and we don’t do that even truthfully. So contrast that, Lakoff does, with the people who go to business school. That’s who we’re up against largely, who study cognitive and marketing science, and who, in most cases, except the finance guys, have to sell products and services to advance their careers, so they have a natural tendency and inclination to engage in public persuasion to succeed, and it’s very profitable for them. You know, do marketing and public confusion and propaganda, and you can avoid regulations on your industry, or get yourself a multibillion-dollar tax cut.

Mitch Ratcliffe  11:25
Thank you. That’s a great kickoff because you covered about half the questions I wanted to talk about. But let’s go back and unpack some of that stuff.

David Fenton  11:32
Sure.

Mitch Ratcliffe  11:33
Money was where you started, with money in politics, and you closed with business people earning a profit. So money is a theme here. Is the problem partly, and I find that I am consistently put off by the number of requests for money I get daily, is the problem money in politics in the first place? Should Citizens United be repealed?

David Fenton  11:59
Absolutely, of course. You know, we’re supposed to have a democracy, which means one person, one vote. But because of our very corrupt and very partisan, sadly, Supreme Court, they’ve turned it into one dollar, one vote. That is not what the founders intended, and that’s not a democracy. That’s a kleptocracy. So yes, this is a fundamental problem, but that’s a surmountable problem. You know, if you create a mass movement.

Mitch Ratcliffe  12:34
What would it look like to show up and create that mass movement?

David Fenton  12:37
Well, we’ve seen it many times before. You know, I’m very privileged. At age 74, I’ve seen and participated in a number of mass movements fighting the odds and winning. You know, we stopped the Vietnam War. We overcame segregation in the South. We got gay marriage. We got compassionate care to HIV victims. You know, on and on and on. There have been a lot of victories. We legalized marijuana. You know, we’ve certainly vastly improved the status of women and gays, and civil rights in our country. We have a long way to go, but it’s nothing like it was.

So these were all the results of mass movements, and there will be a mass movement to save a livable Earth. That’s going to happen. The weather’s going to make it happen. The problem, of course, as you know from the physics, is that we wait too long to let it happen spontaneously instead of nurturing it. It could be too late. So I’m confident it’ll happen, but we’re not building the infrastructure and creating the demand for it to the degree that we could, and it would cost a fraction of the philanthropic and NGO spending on climate and the environment today if it was directed to that.

Mitch Ratcliffe  14:01
Well, so how do you win that business person over to the idea that there is more profit in a more sustainable, renewable energy-based economy?

David Fenton  14:09
Well, that’s happening more and more because, of course, as you know, almost all new investment in energy is going into clean energy and storage. So the market is doing that more than people know. Actually, you know, the industry, the renewable power industry, has done a very bad job of marketing. It’s kind of, you know, shell-shocked and browbeaten and keeping its head down. There is a new effort underway called Amped, amped.org, to have the industry do more sophisticated communications and to stop getting punched in the face so much.

You know, all this ridiculous stuff. Offshore wind kills whales, a meme brought to you by the people that don’t give a crap about whales. You know, or well, all the mining for solar panels and batteries, which of course is a tiny, tiny fraction of the drilling and mining for fossil fuels. I mean, these people are shameless, and they’re good at it, and we don’t counter them hardly at all.

Mitch Ratcliffe  15:21
One of the issues is sort of the preponderance of bad news, and I think back to Love Canal galvanized the environmental movement in there in the 80s.

David Fenton  15:31
Sure.

Mitch Ratcliffe  15:32
And now, you know, Altadena burns to the ground, Pacific Palisades burns to the ground, wildfires everywhere. I literally was evacuated because of a wildfire a couple of weeks ago.

David Fenton  15:42
Oh, wow, sorry.

Mitch Ratcliffe  15:43
And well, we made it. My house is here. When you mentioned Vietnam, for instance, I mean, we lost about 58,000 Americans in Vietnam. But because of pollution from oil and natural gas, about 91,000 people die every year in the United States, and an additional 15,000 because of the wildfire smoke and the particulates that people are inhaling. What do we do to focus the potential rage that would change things?

David Fenton  16:11
Yeah, well, again, only 12% of Americans see or hear anything about climate change and clean energy on social media. Two thirds say that they rarely or never see or hear anything about it in the media or from their friends. It’s not an issue people talk about, and that’s all overcomeable. We have no infrastructure, no marketing campaign, no persuasion campaign, none, zero, zilch at any scale to do something about this, so you can’t expect people to mobilize and organize when you have one side of an information war confusing them and reaching them all the time, and the other side quiet, basically, and underfunded.

And it’s especially tragic because in the digital communication age, we know exactly how to reach people. It’s not expensive, really, compared to the money we’re spending on other things. We know how to do it. We have all the data. There’s a great group called Potential Energy Coalition, run by a former branding guy, corporate branding guy. They have all the data. They know exactly what messages work with which audiences, but nobody is deploying it. So this is the problem. You know, there are other problems, of course, in the digital age. People sometimes feel that clicking on something is the same thing as activism, which it isn’t. But you know, I mean, here’s another issue.

So according to the Yale research, the Yale Center on Climate Change Communication, there are approximately 80 million Americans who are in the category of alarmed about climate change, and half of them, 40 million people, say they want to be politically active on the issue, but only 3 million of them are politically active on it. And by the way, that’s about the combined mailing list of the environmental groups asking you for money. So then, when they ask the 37 million who want to be politically active and aren’t, why aren’t you? You know what the number one answer they get is: nobody has asked me.

Mitch Ratcliffe  18:23
They’ve only asked for money.

David Fenton  18:25
The 37 million, they even haven’t asked them for that. So, in other words, you have an infrastructure failure. We are not reaching our own base, and our own base, according to Dr. Anthony Leiserowitz at Yale, is the largest potential issue public in the country, other than abortion, much bigger than the NRA and guns. But it’s not being organized. I mean, ask yourself: if you wanted to go take effective climate action today, where would you go? What website would you go to? What social media channel would you go to? Where would you go?

Mitch Ratcliffe  19:06
Yeah, I have to say that in order to act, other than going to the website where I can send a note to my representative in Congress, not a lot of places come immediately to mind because everything is so diffuse.

David Fenton  19:19
That’s right. So no one’s building up a trusted brand, a trusted organization to do that. We could, of course, we could, and you know that speaks to a whole other issue, which is, I think we’re past peak crazy wokeness in the progressive nonprofit world, but we still have a lot of it.

You know, the language problem is big, as I mentioned, but there’s also a dogmatic problem and an ideological problem. You know, if you are stressing racial and gender divisions in your communication, you’re not going to unite people against a common enemy, so not that those subjects aren’t important. Everybody’s identity is important, but we’re not going to win by appealing to subgroups. We’re going to win by assembling majorities.

Mitch Ratcliffe  20:18
We have to think of a big tent.

David Fenton  20:20
That’s right, and we need, and look, you know, we could win conservatives too. No one has a program to do that at any scale. Now, I’ve conducted experiments where I’ve bought videos on climate change into the social media feeds of conservatives, and the videos feature conservatives explaining how global warming threatens conservative values, and they’re very effective, but no one does it.

So if you’re a conservative or Republican in your filter bubble, all you ever see is that climate change is a hoax. So what do you think you’re going to believe if that’s the only information that ever reaches you? Okay, so we could disrupt that. You can buy advertising on Facebook and Instagram, and LinkedIn, and you know all these platforms. The Russians do it, but we don’t.

Mitch Ratcliffe  21:18
David, you’ve ignited a great conversation. I want to take a quick commercial break, and we’re going to be right back to continue the conversation. Stay tuned, folks.

Welcome back to Sustainability In Your Ear. Let’s get back to my conversation with author and progressive activist David Fenton, whose new book, The Activist’s Media Handbook: Lessons from Fifty Years as a Progressive Agitator, is a guide for multi-generational campaigns for a rational climate response. David, you mentioned social media and buying advertising there, but one of the problems, and not just for advertising, but just individual posts, is that when you use the word climate, it ends up being routed to the people who already care about climate. How do you communicate when the name of the problem that you’re addressing is buried?

David Fenton  22:07
Well, first of all, you can buy access to people who aren’t in that bubble. You can just pay for it, and it’s not expensive. And of course, with digital communications, you can test your messages and content to see what really works before you pay to scale it. So it’s not an excuse, you know.

And there is something else, which is, I think that we need to put more pressure on the tech platforms and companies, and by the way, also on the television networks, which are not irrelevant as people may think. You know, I mean, the TV networks are big on TikTok as sources of news, and they don’t ever, hardly ever, link extreme weather to pollution from fossil fuels. So, you know, these people can be pressured. The problem is, the only people that pressure them are the right. We don’t, because again, our community doesn’t think you need to sell ideas. We think that’s dirty and manipulative.

But by the way, you know, thanks for mentioning my book. You know, I also have a podcast now called The Fenton Forecast on all platforms, and we’re looking at the future of climate and AI and health and democracy and all these issues.

Mitch Ratcliffe  23:27
You’ve got a rule: fight falsehood immediately, and that’s because a lie will harden into a truth the more times it’s seen. But now a lie outruns the truth by a pretty wide margin, largely because the other side pays for it to do so. What’s your playbook for fighting disinformation? How’s it changed, particularly as a result of AI and the ability to amplify everything?

David Fenton  23:48
Well, it’s not only that they pay for it; they’re unified, and we’re the Tower of Babel. So you know, the Koch-funded conservative infrastructure of all their think tanks and influencers and podcasts and you know all of it. You know, they speak to the same topics and messages on a daily and weekly basis. They meet. They coordinate. They’re in lockstep, and that’s very important because the cognitive science is very clear. The way people learn is from significant amounts of repetition of simple messages. Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. Simple, simple, simple, simple, simple.

And by the way, most people in our community hate that. We hate simplifying things. We’re not rewarded for it, and we hate repeating ourselves. But that’s what works, and they understand it, so they organize their field to do that. And we’re, you know, everybody on their own doing their thing. So that’s one big problem. I mean, even in our scientific community, there’s no unity of discourse or language or imagery that would help a lot. Nobody organizes it, so, and we could pay for it also.

Now AI is a whole other thing, of course, and you know I don’t have all the answers to that, but I do think that eventually we are going to have to have laws in this country that demand that AI-generated content is labeled as such, and we also should have laws that to be on a social media platform, you have to prove you are a human, not a Russian bot. We’re going to go through a lot of hard times, and eventually we’re going to end up regulating these platforms. You know, you see the difference. Look at why are the Europeans so much more focused on appropriate levels of regulation of social media, and they have some rules about media in general. It’s because they went through fascism and the Holocaust, and they saw how unchecked demagoguery can kill millions. So they’re focused on this, and we’re still in a frontier, false idea of freedom model. And but it’s not going to last.

Mitch Ratcliffe  26:17
When you say that people on the left don’t like to repeat themselves, it really comes home for me because I hate repeating myself. And George Lakoff, who wrote the foreword to your book, in addition to being somebody you talk about, has argued that there are two kinds of minds politically, or two moral worldviews, that are based on different models of the family. One’s the strict father; the other is the nurturing parent. And Lakoff’s work on metaphor and how it informed our relationship with the world, Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things, is a brilliant, brilliant book. And his book on mathematics just blew my mind 20, 30 years ago. But I’ve never really agreed with that bicameral mind idea. How does that framework change the way you think about talking to people about climate?

David Fenton  27:03
Okay, so you left out a third category from Lakoff, which are the biconceptuals, he calls them. So Trump’s the conservative strict father. The father’s always right. White people on top. Man on top. That’s conservative morality, and the nurturing parent, that’s, you know, we kumbaya feel-good liberals. But the swing voters are the people who have both neural networks, and they either can be activated depending on the language and personalities they are exposed to.

For example, in an election campaign, so take for example James Talarico in Texas, who’s running for Senate. So he’s attracting lots of swing and independent voters and some Trump voters because he’s activating the nurturing, caring, love thy neighbor, actual Christian side of their brains. So I think that the job here is to activate and mobilize the base and win over a significant number of the biconceptuals, and then you have an enduring majority. So I think that’s how I use his framework.

You know, of course, the reason we don’t like repetition and simplicity is in academia, you’re not rewarded for that. You’re rewarded for specialization. Yeah. You know, the smaller the better. So yeah, it’s bad training. It really is.

Mitch Ratcliffe  28:41
Two of your signature wins turned on the messenger who delivered the message, not just the message. One was the Rockefellers divesting from fossil fuels, and the other was Yoko Ono put up a billboard on Governor Cuomo’s commute that said, “Imagine there’s no fracking.” And as I read about that in the book, I was thinking of McLuhan and his argument that the medium is the message, but it sounds like we’ve moved to the messenger is the message. Is that the case?

David Fenton  29:08
More, yeah, because as trust in institutions has declined, including traditional media institutions, what trust remains is in people, is in individual influencers online, including some celebrities like take Taylor Swift or people like that. So yes, whereas the media used to be the message, it’s increasingly what we call parasocial influencers, people that you trust and who you follow.

So the fossil fuel industry is building up a bunch of these people. You can see it. In fact, right now there is a torrent of horrible disinformation on climate on Elon Musk’s racist platform. It’s unbelievable. The worse the fires get, the hotter it gets, the more torrent of bullshit is on X. And a lot of it comes through, “Well, I used to be a climate activist, and I’ve seen the light. Fossil fuels are the greatest thing ever.” We have nobody like, so we have some incredible talent. Like, have you ever heard of Dr. Katharine Hayhoe?

Mitch Ratcliffe  30:25
Oh, sure. Yeah.

David Fenton  30:26
Okay. So she’s a Christian evangelical climate scientist at Texas Tech University. Her husband’s an evangelical preacher. She’s amazingly talented, and she has no help online, none. She has no video team, no social media team, no PR firm, no strategist. She does it all by herself. And because she’s so good, she has a million followers. She’d have 15 or 20 million, in my opinion, if she had help.

And here’s a comment on the philanthropic community and its prioritizing communication. Here we have this proven talent, and she can’t raise hardly any money to get a team because we don’t value this work.

Mitch Ratcliffe  31:13
What you’re describing is this talk of authenticity. That person represents the real, and I buy into it. What makes a messenger land, and how do you find the right one?

David Fenton  31:23
Well, she lands. We’ve proven it. I’ve done focus groups with her videos and online dial testing, and there are, you know, there are TV meteorologists who are really, really good at this. You know, former Governor Jay Inslee of Washington, he’s terrific at the clean energy side of this. The founder of Amped, Steve McBee, is really a terrific spokesperson. You know, Michael Mann, the climate scientist, he’s very talented. There’s a young scientist, Marcius Extavour, who’s really effective. There’s a number of them, but they have no help. Let’s get them some help.

Mitch Ratcliffe  32:04
The other issue that seems to be activating everyone, left and right, is concerns about the state of our democracy. And in fact, it ranks right up there with climate change. How do you see the fight for climate and democracy potentially merging in some way in order to make this into one struggle for a major change in the way we do things?

David Fenton  32:22
Yeah, I think that will happen. You know, we have fossil fuel industry evil billionaires, and now, unfortunately, we have Silicon Valley fascist evil billionaires, and these people are corrupting the democracy, and they’re also threatening people’s health and homes and livelihoods and prosperity and children and their lungs, so and their ability to get insurance. And you know, it’s like the Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis said in the 1940s. He said, you know, you could either have a democracy or you can have great concentrations of wealth, but you can’t have both.

So I think that this is all going to merge into a movement to have checks and balances on private power, which we’ve had before. Teddy Roosevelt broke up the monopolies and the trusts. You know, the top marginal tax rate in this country used to be functionally 70% under Eisenhower. It was 90, but functionally it was 70. That made owners of companies invest in their workers and businesses rather than give all the money to the government.

So actually, the whole ideology about taxes is backwards, so yeah, you know, there’s this tax on billionaires on the ballot in California this November. I think it’s very likely to pass, and it’s kind of sad to watch some of these billionaires. They’re so upset. It’s 1% a year for five years, guys. You know, this is half what you pay your hedge fund managers, and you pay them that even if they lose money. So it’s, you know, the wealth inequality is corrupting, and there are some good billionaires, you know, who fund a lot of great things, but this is distorted, and you can’t have a functioning democracy with this degree of disparity.

So yeah, I think it’s all going to change. I’m really confident it’s all going to change. History shows that periods of great income concentration lead to rebellion, and periods of less income concentration, just like periods of fascism and repression, never last. They lead to rebellions and it collapses. But the real problem, as you know, is we are running out of time to save a livable Earth and climate because the carbon dioxide stays up there for millennia, and this is the worry. Will this happen in time? And that’s up to us.

Mitch Ratcliffe  35:03
That’s the nail we have to figure out how to drive home. And Franklin Roosevelt, the other one, there’s an apocryphal story about him after coming to office. The Depression was underway. He brought the richest people in the world, in the country, to the White House and said, “Look, we have to do something about this, or they’re going to kill you. What is it going to take to …”

David Fenton  35:26
I want. There’s another meeting that Franklin Roosevelt had when he first took office. He brought in all these progressive and labor leaders, and they all laid out what they wanted him to do. And Roosevelt looked at them and said, “I agree with you on everything. Now go out and make me do it.” So that’s the job.

Mitch Ratcliffe  35:49
Well, okay, but what event catalyzes that moment here in the United States? Do we have to wait for the ultimate disaster?

David Fenton  35:55
You know, the disasters are happening all around us.

Mitch Ratcliffe  35:58
That’s the problem. It’s just, it’s …

David Fenton  36:02
Okay, but back to, there’s nothing on social media. There’s almost nothing in the regular media about this at all. But there’s certainly nothing simply linking the pollution from oil, coal, and gas to these weather disasters. So this is not something that people really know at a deep enough level.

You know, When you ask Americans what causes climate change, you know the number one answer you get: it’s caused by the ozone hole, which it isn’t. And when you ask them how to solve it, the number one answer you get, 40%, is reduce, reuse, and recycle, which won’t solve it. So you have climate illiteracy, which we could fix, and until we do, we won’t get action.

Mitch Ratcliffe  36:52
For someone listening right now, what is the one thing you would urge them to do?

David Fenton  36:56
Talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about it. Post about it. Get everybody to talk about it. We have an emergency that people aren’t talking about. That’s not good.

And I think that, pressure any philanthropies, philanthropists, and NGOs that you know to devote more of their resources to creating public demand. Public knowledge and public demand is what we lack. We don’t lack solutions; we lack demand.

Mitch Ratcliffe  37:30
David, this has been a fascinating conversation. How can people follow your work and tune into the podcast?

David Fenton  37:35
So The Fenton Forecast is on Spotify and Apple and YouTube and all the major platforms. The website’s fentonforecast.com. The website for my book is davidfentonactivist.com. Davidfentonactivist.com. And if anybody wants to write to me, it’s hello at fentonforecast.com. Hello at fentonforecast.com.

Mitch Ratcliffe  38:01
David, I hope you get a lot of mail. Thanks so much for your time today.

David Fenton  38:05
All right, thank you. Let’s stay in touch.

Mitch Ratcliffe  38:07
I’d love to.

David Fenton  38:07
Okay, bye.

Mitch Ratcliffe  38:14
Welcome back to Sustainability In Your Ear. You’ve been listening to my conversation with David Fenton, the founder of Fenton Communications, author of The Activist’s Media Handbook: Lessons from Fifty Years as a Progressive Agitator, and host of The Fenton Forecast. You can learn more about David’s work at davidfentonactivist.com. David Fenton Activist is all one word, no space, no dash. DavidFentonActivist.com, and you can find the podcast at fentonforecast.com, which is also all one word, no spaces, no dash. Fentonforecast.com.

So, 50 years of campaigning from No Nukes to the fight over fracking in New York, and here’s the verdict that David brings back: the climate movement is losing an information war because it showed up for the fight with ideas, not effective messaging. 12% of Americans say that they ever see anything about climate change on social media. Of the roughly 40 million Americans who say they want to be politically active on climate, only about 3 million follow through with action. And when researchers ask the other 37 million why they aren’t involved, the top answer is that nobody has asked them. Well, that’s not a public opinion problem. It’s an organizing failure based on overreliance on mailing-list-based fundraising. You’ve got to give people something to do, not just ask them for money to do something for them.

So let’s start with where the money goes. Climate philanthropy and the NGOs that it funds are very good at policy, law, and science, and they spend almost nothing on persuading the public that any of that matters. David traced that to what George Lakoff calls the Enlightenment fallacy, the belief that a strong policy argument will spread on its own just because it’s correct, in addition to the corollary that selling ideas is beneath serious people. I hear a version of this every week on the show. We are not short of solutions. We cover them constantly: heat pumps, geothermal networks, sorting technology that can pull a specific polymer out of a mixed stream. What we are short of is the 40 million voices that make any of it politically survivable. The Inflation Reduction Act passed by one vote and was gutted by one vote. And David’s read is that a bill that you win by one vote is a bill that you never really won. And so far, that’s proven to be true.

Now another point cuts closer to home for those of us who care about this. When Americans are asked how to solve climate change, the most common answer is reduce, reuse, and recycle, and bully for them. I believe that that is part of the solution. Earth911 has spent three decades on exactly that vocabulary, and I’m not going to pretend that it has succeeded. Recycling is a material strategy. It’s a big one because most of what we call consumption is really extraction, processing, and transportation, as well as the emissions embedded in the goods we buy, and they’re a bigger share of the national footprint than most people assume. But no rate of curbside recycling participation decarbonizes the grid or the fleet that delivers the products to us and takes it away, including for recycling.

David’s fix is to stop leading with the words that failed to gain cognitive traction. Net zero means almost nothing to most listeners. Carbon, which is the basis for life, is a mystery to most people. Pollution, however, is a word nobody defends, and David’s description of a blanket of pollution around the Earth that traps heat is a picture people already have in their heads. That’s worth borrowing and worth testing in conversations with your friends and family.

And finally, it’s time to look closely at the messenger economics that are involved in this new communications conflict. Trust has shifted from institutions to individuals, some of them pretty shady, and the fossil fuel side is investing in individuals. They’re hiring them, while our side leaves the best communicators to fend for themselves. David’s example of Katharine Hayhoe, the evangelical climate scientist with about a million followers who has no video team, no social team, and no strategist, is an example of that. Meanwhile, the clean energy industry, after years of taking punches over whales and mining, has launched another advocacy platform, Amped, in May of this year. Take a listen to my recent conversation with GoodPower’s Leah Qusba, who is working the same strategy from the tools end of the equation. That is, with AI-assisted tools for spotting anti-renewables messaging and responding to them.

And to David’s caution, I would add another: attention purchased is not the same as earned trust. Industry-funded persuasion carries a credibility discount, and the parasocial channel can cut both ways. The influencer who tells you that they gave up being a climate activist after seeing the light is using the exact same machinery in our minds. Money buys reach, but it doesn’t necessarily buy a message or messenger people will continue to believe. So here’s the number that I’m going to be watching for this year, and it’s not the number of gigatons of carbon or the gigawatts of energy, but whether a single large climate funder moves serious money into permanent communications infrastructures. And by the way, I am hearing rumors that there is one big one out there looking at a $300 million campaign. The 37 million wannabe climate advocates are still waiting to be asked, and they need to be equipped with messages and tools they can use to take action. So we’re going to continue to watch this story and share progress as it develops.

Hey, if this conversation gave you something to argue with, send it to somebody who will argue back and leave us a review while you’re there, folks. You’re the amplifiers that can spread more ideas to create less waste, and there are more than 560 episodes in the Sustainability In Your Ear archive to share with your friends, your family, and coworkers. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Audible, and any other purveyor of podcast goodness you prefer. Thanks for your support. We really appreciate you spreading the word.

I’m Mitch Ratcliffe. This is Sustainability In Your Ear, and we will be back with another innovator interview soon. In the meantime, folks, take care of yourself, take care of one another, and let’s all take care of this beautiful planet of ours. In fact, let’s advocate for it. Have a Green Day.

The post Sustainability In Your Ear: David Fenton on How to Win the Climate Debate appeared first on Earth911.

https://earth911.com/podcast/sustainability-in-your-ear-david-fenton-on-how-to-win-the-climate-debate/

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8 Sustainable and Non-Toxic Bed Frames for a Peaceful Slumber

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Unwind and sleep easy with one of these non-toxic and eco-friendly bed frames that you know was sourced consciously, both in respect to your own health and the health of our common home: Mother Earth.

What is a Non-Toxic and Eco-Friendly Bed Frame?

Just as with other eco-friendly furniture, the key elements to consider when it comes to bed frames are the materials, finishes, general production practices, and durability.

Materials

If you’re looking for a natural bed frame and want it to be non-toxic, it’s typically best to go the solid wood route if you can.

Most plywood, particleboard, or engineered wood is made with glue that contains added formaldehyde. As a Volatile Organic Compound (VOC) and probable carcinogen, formaldehyde is an environmental and health risk for yourself and the workers producing that product. While all wood naturally contains formaldehyde, pressed wood contains higher concentrations of it.

Another material to consider if you’re looking for non-toxic furniture is solid metal, due to its durability, easy maintenance, and recyclability. However, this option isn’t as eco-friendly if that metal was newly mined, rather than recycled.

Sourcing

Of course, although wood is renewable, it’s not always sustainably sourced. Look at a company’s About or Sustainability pages to see what information they can provide about how the wood they use is harvested and where it is sourced from. Look for things like:

  • Local sourcing. This minimizes the product’s carbon footprint and typically means that a company has more transparency into their supply chain.
  • FSC-certified. While not perfect, the Forest Stewardship Council seal is the most widely used third-party verification for sustainably-sourced wood.
  • Reclaimed wood. Finding a bed frame made from repurposed materials is a fantastic option if you can find it. Not only does using reclaimed wood reduce waste, but it minimizes the need to cut down additional trees.

Finishes

Most conventional finishes used on furniture contain VOCs, which can cause a myriad of short-term and long-term health impacts. Look for non-toxic bed frames with low-VOC or even better, zero-VOC finishes.

Other Production Practices:

  • Renewable energy use. Does the company use wind or solar power for its operations? Do they purchase Renewable Energy Credits?
  • Waste reduction. How does the company handle material waste such as leftover wood? Do they work to minimize water use and energy use?
  • Donations. Does the company give back to an environmental organization through a group like 1% for the Planet? Do they plant more trees than the number of trees cut down to produce their products?

Durability

One of the all-too-often left out elements of sustainability is durability and longevity! The longer the bed frame lasts, the longer it stays out of the landfill, and the fewer new bed frames you’ll have to consume.

How can you determine durability? Look for sturdy materials, good construction, check out the reviews for the brand’s products, and see what sort of warranty the brand offers. Some brands offer 1-year or 5-year warranties, and some even include a lifetime guarantee! The longer a brand commits to standing behind its products, the better.

If you’re planning to move around often, you may also want to consider how well the bed frame can be deconstructed and reconstructed. Fast furniture brands with poor construction — and that may use plastic in places that should be supported with metal — may not hold up after a few moves.

A Quick Note on Certifications

Certifications aren’t the full story in sustainability, but they can provide an important added layer of verification to a company’s claims.

  • FSC Certified = the wood sourcing was responsibly managed (not perfect but generally recommended as a stronger standard that Sustainable Forestry Initiative)
  • GOTS Certified = the fabric meets strict organic and safety standards; this applies to the textiles only (like any upholstery on a bed frame), not the wood or any foam
  • GREENGUARD / GREENGUARD Gold Certified = the finished product was tested for low chemical emissions, with Gold representing the stricter tier;
  • LEED Certified = verifies the environmental performance of the building or manufacturing facility itself (energy use, water efficiency, indoor air quality); this is a facility-level certification, not a claim about the product’s materials or emissions
  • Carbon Neutral Certified = verifies that a company has measured its greenhouse gas emissions and offset or reduced them to net zero; this is typically a company-level claim, not a guarantee about any single product’s individual footprint

How to Find Sustainable and Natural Bed Frames

As always, shopping secondhand is a great way to source furniture sustainably and more affordably! Sites like Facebook Marketplace, local Buy Nothing groups, and Craigslist can be resources for finding cheap eco-friendly furniture — sometimes, you can even get a piece for free if you’re willing to take care of the pick-up.

I also recommend checking out EstateSales.net to find local estate sales happening near you! I have found some of my absolute favorite pieces of high-quality, preloved furniture at estate sales.

For a more curated selection of secondhand bed frames, check out AptDeco.

And if vintage furniture (usually defined by being more than 40 years old) is more your style, take a look at Chairish, EBTH, or 1st Dibs.

If you can’t find anything preloved, or you’d prefer to purchase a verified non-toxic bed frame, check out these brands below for sustainable bedroom furniture!

Note that this sustainable bed frame guide contains affiliate links, meaning we’ll earn a small commission if you choose to purchase through one of these links, which helps us continue to run this site. As always, all brands meet rigorous criteria for sustainability and are brands we love — and that we think you’ll love too!

Brands with Sustainable and Non-Toxic Bed Frames:

Our Top Overall Pick: Savvy Rest

Eco bed frames from Savvy rest

Savvy Rest has everything you need to sleep more restfully, from organic mattresses to non-toxic bedroom furniture. The brand’s timeless all-natural platform beds — The Afton is their flagship platform bed and The Esmont is a platform bed with a customizable headboard — are made in their own Virginia workshop. Each bed is crafted out of sustainably-sourced maple and poplar wood and is available unfinished or with a zero-VOC finish.

The non-toxic furniture company also has a sustainable adjustable bed frame crafted from responsibly-sourced solid red oak, featuring a mid-century modern headboard.

Conscious Qualities: Sustainably-Sourced Wood, Zero-VOC Finishes, Local Production

Price Range: $1,049 (Twin platform bed) – $4,799 (King adjustable bed frame) | Use code CONSCIOUSSTYLE20 for 20% off

Shipping: Free White Glove delivery within continental U.S.; contact for quotes outside 48 contiguous states

Best Reclaimed Wood Bed Frame Options: Avocado

Wooden and sustainable bed frame from Avocado Mattress

Made in their own GOTS-certified Los Angeles factory, Avocado Mattress makes eco-friendly bed frames with high environmental, health, and social standards. Each bed frame is made out of reclaimed wood or solid FSC-certified timber and zero-VOC finishes.

For the bed frames made from new wood, Avocado Mattress uses non-toxic Titebond wood glues. The Certified B-Corporation also pays living wages and offers benefits, including family healthcare, to their production factory team members.

Conscious Qualities: Reclaimed or FSC-Certified Wood, Zero-VOC Finishes, Local Production in a GOTS-Certified Factory, Greenguard-Certified (Gold), Carbon Neutral Certified

Price Range: $750 (Twin platform bed) – $7,999 (California King frame with headboard)

Shipping: Ships furniture within the contiguous U.S.

Best Variety of Eco-Friendly Beds: Medley

White upholstered eco-friendly bed from Medley

Using only the highest quality non-toxic materials for their sustainable furniture, Medley has natural bed frames are made from domestically-sourced FSC-certified solid wood. Each wooden bed frame is made-to-order in Los Angeles using zero-VOC glue and zero-VOC all-natural furniture polish. (Note: Medley’s bamboo furniture uses low-VOC finishes.)

If you prefer an upholstered sustainable bed, check out Medley’s Nein bed which has the option to use organic natural latex.

Conscious Qualities: Local In-House Production, FSC-Certified Wood, Natural Finishes, Made-to-Order

Price Range: $2,495 (Twin bed with headboard) – $6,595 (King bed with headboard and storage)

Shipping: Contiguous U.S. (contact Medley for quotes outside of the U.S.)

Best for Sustainable Upholstered Beds: Saatva

Modern eco-friendly bed frame from Saatva

Saatva is a sustainable mattress company that has expanded into eco-friendly bed frames too. The company uses responsibly sourced hardwood that has been kiln-dried for maximum durability for the bed frame as well as plywood slats for additional support. (Note: I asked Saatva’s customer support team about potential toxins in the plywood, and they have told me that their beds are free of formaldehyde.)

For upholstery, Saatva offers natural linen as an option, which would be the non-toxic fabric choice!

Probably the most impressive feature of Saatva’s beds is their attention to quality and proper support. They even offer a 180-day trial to make sure you love the bed, plus a lifetime warranty — a feature you definitely won’t find at most big box furniture stores.

Conscious Qualities: Sustainably-Sourced Hardwood, Natural Upholstery Option, Lifetime Warranty

Price Range: $795 (Twin platform bed) – $3,295 (King bed with leather headboard)

Shipping: Contiguous U.S; free in-room delivery

Best Design Forward Sustainable Beds: Cisco Home @ Urban Natural

eco-friendly bed made with red upholstered fabric and sustainable bed with gray upholstered fabric

Made to order with exceptional care in Los Angeles, Cisco Home is the real deal when it comes to quality sustainable furniture, including their eco-friendly upholstered or slipcovered beds. (Choose upholstered for a more classic style or select slipcovered for easy cleaning and maintenance.) Cisco’s cozy yet elegant beds will transform your bedroom into an aesthetically pleasing sanctuary.

Cisco Home’s default furniture options don’t automatically include their best eco materials. So for the most eco-minded and non-toxic option, select “Make it Organic” on the product pages which will ensure your bed gets made with only the highest quality earth-conscious materials: FSC-certified woods, organic latex, jute, hemp, organic cotton, and wool.

Conscious Qualities: Made In California, Made-to-Order, Low-VOC Stains, FSC-Certified Wood and Natural Materials (with “Inside Green” option)

Price: $3,588 (Twin upholstered bed) – $10,979 (King organic upholstered bed)

Shipping: Ships within contiguous U.S.; white glove delivery available with fee

Best Simple Sustainable Wood Bed Frame: Birch

Solid wood non-toxic bed frame from Birch with mattress

Organic and eco-friendly mattress company Birch also has a natural wood bed frame made from responsibly-sourced hardwood. In fact, all of the wood in the Birch Wood Frame are from FSC-certified and LEED compliant sources, to verify their commitment to responsible wood harvesting and energy use.

Specifically, this sustainable bed frame is made up of Appalachian hardwood bed rails, solid Southern Yellow Pin wood slats, and Appalachian Maple legs. This minimal solid wood bed frame is finished with all-natural water-based VOC-free finishes.

And in case you needed more reasons to love this non-toxic bed frame: it’s handmade in the USA, ships free, and comes with a 5-year warranty.

Conscious Qualities: Solid Wood, Responsibly Sourced, Zero VOC Finishes

Price: $599 (Twin) – $978 (King)

Shipping: U.S. and Canada (feel applies to HI, AK, and Canada)

Best Affordable Eco-Friendly Bed Frame: Thuma

Sustainable and wooden bed frame from Thuma

Minimal yet functional, Thuma’s eco-friendly beds are designed with intention — they are supportive and sturdy yet simple and easy to assemble.

Each minimalist bed is made from upcycled and repurposed rubberwood trees and is shipped out efficiently in recycled cardboard. (No styrofoam here!) With an average 4.9 star rating from nearly 21,000 reviews, there’s clearly a lot to love about Thuma’s sustainable bed frames.

Conscious Qualities: GREENGUARD Certified, Repurposed Wood

Price Range: $895 (Twin bed, frame only) – $2,595 (King bed with upholstered headboard)

Shipping: Ships within U.S. and Canada (international customers can use freight forwarder)

Best Untreated Non-Toxic Bed Frame: My Green Mattress

Non-toxic and eco bed frames from My Green Mattress

MyGreenMattress.com has a simple sustainable bed frame made in the US from untreated domestically-sourced Poplar wood. The non-toxic bed frame does not have any wood stains, adhesives, or toxic chemicals. This slatted platform bed also eliminates the need for a box spring.

Conscious Qualities: Domestically-Sourced Wood, Non-Toxic & Untreated, Made in the US

Price: $799 (Twin without headboard) – $1,899 (King with headboard)

Shipping: Free shipping within U.S.

And that’s a wrap on our guide to sustainable and non-toxic bed frames. Thanks for reading, and for taking the time to be thoughtful about your next bedroom furniture purchase. And I hope that this guide saved you some time and research and you’re on your way to finding the right sustainably-crafted bed that suits your needs and interior aesthetic.

Complete Your Bedroom: Non-Toxic Mattresses | Eco-Friendly Pillows | Organic Bedding | Non-Toxic Nightstands

Shopping For Other Furniture? Browse These Guides:

The Best Sustainable Furniture Brands

Non-Toxic Furniture Brands For A Healthy Home

Actually Sustainable and Non-Toxic Sofas for Restful Relaxation

The post 8 Sustainable and Non-Toxic Bed Frames for a Peaceful Slumber appeared first on Conscious Life & Style.

8 Sustainable and Non-Toxic Bed Frames for a Peaceful Slumber

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